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Player feedback from May 2021
Dungeoneers
May 3, 2021 13:44

This topic contains player feedback for this month that the player approved for the forum.

May 3, 2021 20:32

Woohoo! I’m the first person to make a post for May, do I get a special reward?

Since the game now posts the highest daily kill what would it take to be able to post the highest daily kill for each character? on the screen?

May 4, 2021 17:49

more hitpoints for the Elf. Ability to start with higher ranked weapons

May 5, 2021 2:07

Elf is already one of the strongest characters. This discussion about more hit points for dwarf or elf is not very promising, because it would raise a lot of rebalancing-issues.
Concerning the weapons: One should not destroy the value of the cavern weapons. What could be interesting is a more random pattern, including 0 and 2 (with average = 1). But this would need new names for the zero weapons.
I propose “Bare Hand” as name for a zero-sword and shield. ;)
Maybe “Broken Harp” is a similar name for the zero-bow.

May 5, 2021 3:10

I mentioned that problem already two times, but today it was serious: I died in the tourney, because I clicked on the entrance field in the caverns, but “at the same time with the click” a cavern crawler appeared on that field. It would be good to make that appearance a “move” that takes some time or not accept clicks for a second.

May 5, 2021 12:23

Hi, nanohawa.

The Elf is much worse defensively than either the Dwarf or the Human, (both because she rolls d8 and because she has fewer hit points) but she compensates for that by being much better at staying out of trouble.

If you focus on not letting ANY monster get a chance to hit the Elf (and particularly when the Elf is not adopting a defensive stance) then the hit points that the Elf already has can go much further.

May 5, 2021 14:25

Bare Hand, there should be at least a one second delay after the crawler appears before the game will register a click (otherwise it’ll still be the monsters’ turn and you should get a bad click bong). Do you think that’s not happening?

May 5, 2021 14:28

We used to have random starting weapons from 0-2 I believe, and the 0-names were pretty good. Rowdius will have to refresh my memory on why we moved away from that.

May 5, 2021 17:40

@nanohawa - the Elf is a difficult hero to master, but she is there every week in the top of the tournament along with the dwarf who, at high levels, can be almost bulletproof. It’s the swordsman who is usually trailing in third place. He is a good all-round character though, and is straightforward and satisfying to play. All of the heroes have their own playing style to learn; you won’t get far playing the elf in the same way as the dwarf, or the dwarf in the same way as the human.

The caverns are harder than they first look and there is some skill to getting a game off the ground when the monsters are badly positioned or you get bad rolls on the caverns weapons. A 4,2 firebug is a potentially deadly opponent if you only have a +1 sword of cutting remarks and a +1 shield of broken bones. Picking your fights (or not) until you have better weapons is a key part of playing the caverns. The extra +2 from getting a +3 weapon or from fighting on adrenaline makes a significant difference against several of the caverns monsters.

@Bare Hand - I think +0 weapons would have to be an unlock, perhaps at a relatively low fame level. For newbies whose heroes have no skills to add attack, the career caverns would be very hard with +0 weapons.

May 5, 2021 19:57

Tonight’s release addressed a couple things mentioned in the forum:

  • We fixed the bug where you weren’t getting the feat bonus on a Bull Rush if it was the second action of the feat.

  • We added a delay after Cavern Crawlers enter a room. Let us know if you think there’s still a problem with clicking its tile before you realize it’s there.

I like the idea of going back to +0 starting weapons. I think we eliminated that when we stopped having the villagers give you better weapons as you rose in fame. To make the caverns easier for new players and +0 weapons, perhaps we take out some of the more difficult caverns monsters (Hag Witch and Spider Queen, for instance) and make them unlocks.

May 6, 2021 1:36

Isn’t it easier making the 0-weapons an unlock? But I also like the idea of hag witch and spider queen being an unlock. Maybe also the 2-health snake?

May 6, 2021 12:59

I’m pretty sure new players would not react well to an unlock being that they start with worse weapons. Although I see from re-reading your post that you were suggesting a range of 0 to +2, with an average of +1. We used to do something like that, but it didn’t feel like it added much to the game. I’d prefer to always start with +0 weapons – that way what you find in the dungeon is more likely to be an improvement.

May 6, 2021 14:36

Bug: There are two shields in the haunt of the spectres (and I can’t get either). It’s bad enough that you drop all the health potions into the locked ruins rooms without putting the normal weapons in there too.

May 6, 2021 16:35

Bug: Fixing the Bull Rush on feat has had the side-effect of Bull Rush into a pit not being counted as an attack during a feat. So you can push a monster in the pit on your first move, and then attack on your remaining second move. I’m sure that wasn’t possible before.

May 6, 2021 16:57

Agree with Rowdius that an unlock giving +0 weapons is rather disappointing. Hag witch is only 3,1 though. Firebug/Hairy spider is 4,2 and croc is 5,3. Those are hard to hit with +1 weapons, let alone +0, and a +0 shield will be next to useless. Why don’t you make sure there are always some rooms with weak caverns monsters (rats, hags, maybe frogs/snakes) so you don’t end up with a random mix consisting of just scorpions, spiders and crocodiles? (Preferably in at least one of the 3 opening rooms.)

May 7, 2021 0:18

@An enimatic stranger. I think that was possible before, too.
raand is right, the big scorpion is more difficult than that big snake. Without that, the scorpions are OK with 0-weapons. Crocs and drider-spider are of course tough. But we also heave a health potion in career mode. That should help to get it done from the start. So the list of changes could be: make 0-starting-weapons, but make
firebug, monstrous scorpion, monstrous snake, spider queen, old swamp troll, hag witch, frogman chief and crocodile warrior (rooms) an upgrade (maybe some of them are that already, I don’t know).
Reduce strength of drider, and hairy spider to 5,2 and 3,2. It is clear, that beginners should not need to know that sneaking is an option and how to use the scrolls etc.

May 7, 2021 2:08

I would agree, that health potions should not be put into the ruins locked rooms any more, but only in the others. Otherwise a “normal” game can consist of only 3 potions. I cannot tell much about the weapon thing. @Enigmatic stranger: It could be a bug that vanishs if you reach the fame level of the locked room. But then it is of course still a bug, isn’t it?

May 7, 2021 12:23

@Bare Hand - OK. If that was possible before then it’s an advantage and I’m OK with it. But it felt different when I played. Like I had an extra move.

Since I’m Basic, the AD rooms in the ruins are always locked. But since I’m at low fame level, they were normal rooms before. And definitely there should not be the normal weapons and the boss weapons in the same (locked) room. There was no shield for me in the ruins at all.

May 7, 2021 13:24

That’s a lot of changes to the monsters for +0 weapons! I think firebugs are interesting and can be useful and should be kept in from the start (maybe fewer though as they are 4,2). And I’m inclined to say the same about the hag witch - if you’ve managed to get a +3 shield you’ve got some chance guarding against the fireball and a +3 attack on everything around you might be helpful if you have +0 sword. I think something like an old swamp troll could be OK if there is a decent chance of using both doorways to shoot it or you managed to get some weapon from another room. It’s quite an early hint to “be sneaky”. Logically, with +0 weapons a 4,2 monster should be like a 5,3 monster with +1 weapons. i.e. dangerous and demanding of respect, but not impossible in the caverns.

The health potion in career mode is a mixed blessing (as you’ll know!). Yes you have more hit points, but you also don’t have the +2 adrenaline. Without that and with a +0 sword and low XP, your attacks are just going to bounce off.

Full Swing +2 is only 250 XP for Swordsman though. Dwarf has +2 charge from the start. Elf can stay out of range better. And the weapon spinners aren’t changing, so actually you are as good as now once you’ve got something to fight with.

Maybe all that’s needed is to limit the monsters to hags, rats and beetles in the first game or two (or maybe unlock the others at fame level 1?)

May 7, 2021 19:40

Enigmatic Stranger: It WAS possible for the human to shove a monster into the pits w/o it counting as and attack before. Here’s a tip- NEVER report an advantageous bug.

This is the mysterious super power I mentioned a few weeks ago. Instead of players discovering it on their own and enjoying a little secret bonus to the character, now it will be fixed.

Thanks a lot, big mouth

May 7, 2021 23:55

It is a feat-superpower and you don’t use the feat bonus. So why not just counting it as move? Maybe it is no bug.

May 8, 2021 1:43

Sorry. But something seemed different there after they fixed the bull rush. If it wasn’t that then something else. Not sure what.

May 8, 2021 12:49

You people are ignorant and brain dead as well as Stupid.

This is at the very least the umpteenth daily hunt where AFTER the first ten rooms or what every you call them, that I have YET to encounter The Monsters that we are Supposed to Hunt!

REALLY!!!!

May 8, 2021 13:19

That’s because the chance of the quarry monsters being put in the room increases as the hunt progresses (as does the number and size of monsters). At the beginning you are more likely to encounter the monsters that live in the environment. There are often several rooms at the beginning which have few or no quarry monsters. You were unlucky to not encounter any after 10 rooms though. If there’s no quarry, consider just trying to sneak through or leave taking as few hits as possible - you do not get points for non quarry monsters.

May 8, 2021 14:30

I loved the mummies, room after room of rats and maybe 1 mummy, of course then you reach the mega sized ones and good luck beating them with the pathetic +6 gear

May 9, 2021 9:53

195 mushroom men! My new level 18 dwarf is like a rock against those puny +9 fireballs! (OK maybe I got a bit lucky too. :-) )

No shortage of mushroom men after room 20.

May 9, 2021 11:18

The thing that puzzles me is why we never started to see rooms with multiple non-mage +12 +13 +14 mushroom men, which likely would have been problematic to handle (not that I’m complaining).

May 9, 2021 11:42

I got rooms with some big mushroom men after a while but I wasn’t particularly tracking if they were bigger than +11. Not sure what the rules are for how the size of the monsters increase as the game progresses.

May 9, 2021 14:50

dropped from cave at fame level 20 into a spector room, and cannot get out because i cant move

May 9, 2021 22:22

I tried the elf with full avoidance of any mage-attacks. I had good sneak/room luck so that I never got stuck in a difficult room. However, I am not sure if there even is a +12/13/14 size of mushroom men. 10 or 11 is max, isn’t it? And the chances seem to be just 20%-30% or so for the max size in the farest rooms. Otherwise we would have seen more in one room. Previously the final rooms had been “totally full” and there was nothing to do but “guard and pray”. Now you can have a “crowded room” and the next one has just 2-3 mushroom men that you can kill woth no risk with the elf (no matter what size). I think the algorithm needs some small balancing, such that there are at least 4-5 monsters in late rooms. Otherwise the “skiphunt” with the elf is too good.

May 9, 2021 23:15

With our most recent release, pit shoves will now reset focus and rage. We’re going to let pit shoving during a feat not count as an attack, so you can take another action if a pit shove was your first action.

May 10, 2021 0:20

I always liked the “coolness” of pit-shoving, but keeping focus on another monster. However, this change is understandable. Now, I fear I even more miss that “flow-feeling” the human had once for some days, when the re-feat was possible on dragons. It just felt SO smooth! Now he is much morse than the (strengthened) other two. The elf has this feeling when getting into the feat with 3-4 dragons “jumpable” and I think the human needs something similar. E.g.
skewer could make use of second dices (but then needs higher percentages).
cleave+skewer at once give a feat (could be skewer III)
no discrimintation for feats concerning massive hits
feat bonus allowed up to 10 (for human only)
deep cleave gives a feat

May 10, 2021 13:06

I’m sure the tournament stats will back up that the swordsman is weaker than the others now. There are good players out there like Tandu with strong swordsmen who I am sure play regularly in the tournament but they don’t ever seem to get 50 dragons. I was fortunate to get 60 dragons with my level 18 dwarf last week but I don’t think I would have got 50 or 60 with the same equipment and potions if I’d played my level 18 swordsman. (40 might have been on because I somehow ended up with 17 potions going into the lair and masses of fire scrolls. But that was not usual.)

May 10, 2021 14:26

The biggest problem with humans is that it is the only one with skills that get less useful as rooms get harder(either more enemies or higher stats). If the stat restrictions on punt and shove were remove human would rise to the same level as the others.

May 10, 2021 15:04

I agree w/ the general conversations here that Human is once again the least effective of the 3. And Trying is right, since Human excels mano-a-mano, he it less effective as difficulty rises.

Some simple tweak might make the difference. IDK what it is, but an idea, maybe, like cleave or skewer ALSO gives a +1 bonus toward scoring a feat or massive hit (since the two are “epic deeds” on the cool-move-spectrum). Or maybe once a multi-hit monster is down to one life-bar, Human can shove them OVER a pit - as in they are stunned for a round (or two) while the extricate themselves from the hole, but they don’t die.

IDK what it is, but Human’s mojo has definitely waned.

May 10, 2021 19:54

should make a magic user class since you already have them as enemies, of course giving them fireballs can’t be allowed because it’d overpower them even though it’s ok for monsters and dragons to use them constantly.

May 11, 2021 0:33

New secret superpower found: Human can punt enemies into the pit!
Feels a bit like nonsense, but OK :D

May 11, 2021 0:43

The human is no faring too badly in relative XP for career games - see the image I posted in the dev-corner of the Discord.

Nonetheless, we’ve been thinking about changing the way Rage works, it might be the “simple tweak” that makes the difference. Perhaps too much difference, but let me know what you think:

CURRENT RAGE RULE:

Each time you roll a 1 or 2 on defense and are hit, or roll a 1 or 2 when attacking and miss, gain +2 to next attack. Bonus is cumulative. Rage continues until you hit successfully or leave the room.

PROPOSED RAGE RULE:

Whenever you miss or are hit, you gain +1 rage (instead of +2, but regardless of what is rolled). [Addresses issue that human skills don’t improve against monsters with higher stats.]

Rage does not reset until the end of a turn in which you hit. So if you hit with a hasted attack, you keep your rage for the normal attack. And if you trigger a feat, you keep your rage throughout the feat. [Addresses Rellik’s desire for more chain feats with the human. And lets you capitalize on a streak of bad luck by using a Haste scroll when really mad.]

May 11, 2021 5:06

Rowdius: Mostly I like the proposal. As always, the proof is in the play, as they say.

I’m guessing that “rage stacking” will be gone, so Human gets a (hypothetically) more frequent bonus for the price of a more powerful bonus? And yes, it would bolster the character at higher lvls where Human’s more likely to miss and be hit.

I think the description of the current “rage” says, “If you miss because of a low roll….” I always interpreted that to mean (before accounting for the enemy’s counter-roll) Human rolled too low to hit. So, for instance, monster’s defense is “4” and human rolls a “3”. But above, you’re saying it’s a specific number rolled.

The reason I’m explaining that is for the idea of you COULD do it that way. It would make the rage bonus occur more often. But, if you DID do it that way, I’d say bonus goes to both offense and defense and isn’t stackable, because I think it would become overpowered in the deeper dungeons if it was stackable.

My suggestion, related to your proposal, as stated (especially if it’s NOT stackable) is apply the bonus to both offence and defense.

OR… allow stacking, but make it subsiding, instead of turn-dependent. Like, right now, say for example rage is “+3”; Human hits, bonus is gone. Instead: Rage bonus “+3” HIT! bonus drops to “+2”, Human calms down a little with each successive turn. That invokes a new strategy vector of “is it best to attack now and maximize the bonus, or do something else this turn and lose some of it.” I say this b/c I’ve had moments during a feat where it’s actually wiser NOT to attack, even though the bonus is substantial. Hope all that makes sense.

Gods, I do drone on, don’t I? Anyway, my short response is that your proposal sounds promising.

May 11, 2021 7:57

So, let me offer an impression:

I do not have a lot of experience with the Human, and am not playing the Human optimally.

Nevertheless, on those occasions when I do involve the Human in a Tag-Team Event (i.e., Career or Campaign mode) against Dragons, the character loses HP with frightening speed–with the hero being hit much more often than not.

I suspect that the main reason that the Dwarf and Elf are better at killing Dragons is simply that they have much better defenses, and (can be played so as to) take damage at a much lower rate.

Additionally, the Human seems to have very poor mobility, comparatively. Am I correct in understanding that the Human cannot move more than 1 hexagon in a turn (or move and attack in the same turn) when fighting a large monster?

Thus, I am intrigued by the fact that the discussion (on how to improve the Human) seems to focus on slightly improving the ability of the Human to attack or counter-attack. But, that is not where the Human’s main deficits lie.

May 11, 2021 8:09

I like the idea of keeping the rage until the end of the turn - especially during feats. You should do this! How that should be calculated I do not dare to judge.
But I don’t like the aspect that ever more rage “nihilates” tactical components like press and full swing.
I tend to underestimate rage, so the following could be wrong, but I don’t think rage will make much of a difference, because it is not any more the hit chance, but moves that he would need. If you play human with a 9-sword, missing is not the problem (at least not in full swing situations), but the total damage he takes - which can currently only be reduced by being faster by scrolls or a lucky 9-shield. What about giving a feat when on rage (+x?) killing an enemy? Do you have statistics how much that happens? Let us say one third of the dragons would (currently) be killed on rage. That would mean 10 feats for 30 dragons. Which sounds to me like the right balance to catch up. This would really let him move forward if he had bad luck before and enables him to “push” himself out of bad situations (e.g. when flame scrolls are used up).

The human has no good options against fleeing (last) dragons. The elf gains “vanish” for this in the end - human has to suffer. That is not a problem IF he is strong in STARTING (not ending) the battle. I think he is that already, but it could be more to take him further.

May 11, 2021 10:08

So, I have just been looking over the Human skills and rules. Is my reading correct that the Human has NO way to adopt a defensive stance that improves the defensive stats, at the cost of reducing attack strength?

The only remotely defensive thing that I could find is “Parry” which appears to apply to at most one enemy per turn, in a melee attack.

There is no ability that allows the Human to detect that a fireball or breath attack is coming, and hide behind his (presumably fireproof) magic shield, for one turn, temporarily increasing the defensive stat?

That sort of capability would presumably go a long way towards helping the Human to survive in a room full of Dragons, not so?

May 11, 2021 12:12

@Bare Hand - punting into a pit has been around for a while but it very rarely happens (I’ve had twice for the entire time I’ve been playing). You have to get hit by something small and be near a pit, and get lucky with the space chosen for the monster. Once it was a lucky fluke, and once every available space around the attacking Kobold was occupied by another Kobold so the pit was the only possible place he could be punted.

Re human’s defence - yes unlike his attack there’s no way of increasing defence beyond shield+2, with a chance of parrying. Strike first and hard against one monster at a time instead. Or shoot first to reduce hp (not usually good against dragons). Bull rush allows strike and move in one turn and made a massive difference to his mobility when it came in. Archers and mages are still trouble though. d10 helps with the bow.

Rage makes a considerable difference to his attack. I like that it goes up by +2; I feel that is enough to make a significant difference immediately after one bad hit. But maybe if it’s going up faster because any miss gives rage +1 then perhaps that will work too.

May 11, 2021 12:20

Re Chad Icon’s suggestion of making rage apply on attack and defence. That’s like the dwarf’s Gird Loins. It took me a while to figure out just how significant that is for the dwarf.

May 11, 2021 13:23

Problem with “rage” is that the Human does not get to take advantage of it until AFTER the Human has already had some sort of (randomly) bad outcome. That is, you are getting good luck as a compensation for prior bad luck, and you (unluckily) FAIL to get good luck as a compensation for prior good luck. How is that a recipe for anything but mediocrity?

In contrast, the Dwarf can often look at the playing board and calculate that there is going to be a 100% chance to “gird loins”, due to lack of neighbors. When neighbor(s) is/are present, then the Dwarf gets to decide whether attacking or hunkering is more likely to work. My results improve because I have charging/attacking/hunkering options every time it is my turn to play–which can produce a better-than-random result on every turn.

Now consider the math. Suppose the Dwarf has (on average) a 55% result on each turn, raised to the power of T, the number of turns. That happens because the Dwarf can fit the choice of move to the circumstances. Suppose, on the other hand, that the Human has (on average) a 50% result on each turn, raised to the power of T. That happens because the Human gets bad luck to compensate for good luck, and vice versa.

Over a long series of trials, the House always beats the Gambler, and the Human has essentially NO chance to catch up with the Dwarf.

So, that is why the Human needs an option to adopt a defensive stance of some sort, to help ride out the turns when multiple Dragons are breathing fire at him, EVEN if the Human is giving up most (or all) of his chance to DO damage on that turn.

My two cents.

May 11, 2021 14:12

@beetletoe - the Parry skill is not worded well. The parry skill is triggered when you guard, and you do get the +2 defensive bonus from guarding, in addition to the chance of parrying the first attack.

A change we could make to parry would be to change “You can only parry the first melee attack against you each round.” to “You can only parry once per round.” (So if the first melee attack misses, or you fail to parry a hit, you can still attempt to parry a subsequent hit.)

Regarding counterbalancing bad luck with good luck, I see that as a positive. People don’t like the RNG, and so anything that reduces the effect of bad luck is a good thing. And rage-induced chain feats would be anything but mediocre.

May 11, 2021 16:13

Hi, Rowdius.

Thanks for clarifying the +2 bonus on parry.

Am I correct in understanding that the bonus does not apply to air attacks? If so, would it be consistent with the Human character concept to give the Human a bigger melee defensive bonus (when defending) and at least SOME minimal resistance to air attacks, when defending?

As for RNG, I completely understand why people do not like it. Nevertheless, the “rage” mechanism appears to prevent the Human from being a very good defender. The Dwarf gets to DECIDE when the hunker bonuses kick in. The (RNG-based) Human has no control over when the rage bonuses kick in (which are based on RNG-based events happening on the previous turn).

I was postulating that the well-played Dwarf character gets a small but significant advantage (in the probability of success in each turn) from this control over when the large defensive bonuses happen. Then, in a long series of turns, the probabilities multiply together.

How does the Human catch up when similar control is lacking, and the available defensive bonuses are much smaller ?

Rule 1: Don’t die. Rule 2: See Rule 1.

May 11, 2021 16:35

I’m curious, why does the elf get to counter distance attacks (arrows, fireball) AND counter melee attacks but the dwarf and human can only counter melee?

May 11, 2021 16:51

Seems like a fair trade-off. The Elf gets fewer HP, and only rolls a d8 on defense. To compensate, the Elf is better at counter-attacking, dodging, stealth, …

May 11, 2021 18:02

Beetletoe - the +2 defense bonus from guarding applies to all attacks. It’s only the chance to parry that only applies to melee attacks.

May 11, 2021 19:51

OK. Never mind.

May 12, 2021 11:38

I agree with beetletoe, in the point, that rage relying on “some sort of (randomly) bad outcome”, will not help alone to catch up with the dwarf or elf. But not because he has a bad defense (or needs defense from rage). In PRINCIPLE the bad defense can be compensated by strong attack. BUT attack alone is worthless, if there is nothing to strike against close to the human. This is why my preferred change direction is “feat chances”. It fits best to the attack-character and closes the gap to hit something. If rage persists over the whole turn this might increase feat chances a bit. But currently a rage value of 4 is very rare and 2 will not be enough to increase the feat chance for a massive hit.
What about this?: Rage INCREASES by two if a dragon dies by the sword, but vanishs after that turn. That way one could make a SIGNIFICANT attack against several dragons if one is “loaded” with rage 4 and could choose a weak target. One might be able to enter a massive streak with rage 6 (after rage 4+haste). But rage must be difficult to accumulate (like now), but fair. E.g. after 4 damage the Human needs a chance to clean the room to catch up with the dwarf. So the equation “damage=rage+1” fits. I don’t trust these misses=rage+1, because I don’t want to end up with shooting nonsense&non-focus arrows to create rage.
Another option would be to let rage reduce the dice numbers for heroic strikes. So with rage 4, the hero just needs a 7+ to do so. Rage would be literally ADDED to the dice. Again rage must difficult to accumulate for this to not become OP.

May 12, 2021 13:48

I don’t want to apply rage to defense because it’s so difficult to show what your defense bonus is.

Rage subsiding is a good idea, but it’s too confusing when you have old rage subsiding combined with new rage being added. We tried something like that with something else, and it didn’t work at all.

And I’m hesitant to have too many rules that apply just to dragons.

How about this?

+1 Rage if you are hit or if you miss with sword (not bow).

Rage resets after a non-hasted hit (or if you leave the room). If you trigger a feat with a hit, you keep your rage bonus during the subsequent feat attack(s).

And maybe the Rage bonus should only apply to sword attacks? (It’s not clear how rage would improve your bow shot. Steph Curry rarely gets mad.)

May 12, 2021 19:11

You people say that you don’t cheat the players; Then Explain to me how come I have been Stuck on 26 Dragons for the Career for at LEAST six months, and How I have been stuck on 20 Dragons for the Campaign, because I keep getting clobbered by the green Dragons, Who by the Way: ALWAYS HIT no matter what , YES ALWAYS HIT! , yet I Always miss with a +8 or even + 9 Bow or Sword!????

May 12, 2021 21:45

Currently we gain +2 in 1/6 of the cases. If you make it +1 in 33% of the cases (hit chance 67%) that is more or less exactly the same. One should not attack with much less hit chance. This is I think the reason why here is no strong opinion for “+1 per miss” or against.
Keeping the rage the whole turn howver, is an improvement and you should do that. All I say is, that this might not be enough to let the human catch up. Especially if you remove the bow as rage generator.
I will gain try to explain why:
The human will suffer that he runs out of scrolls after 30 dragons. He is almost useless without that, because he cannot full swing NOR press NOR cleave regularly without scrolls. Especially against multi-hit-monsters that do not die one per turn (as usually in the dungeon) you cannot solve that usually just by positioning. He would need either more “moves forward” (like a free feat on killing something with rage) or getting more use from the scrolls (e.g. by killing more in the same flame time). All his strengths (besides a possible strong first strike) is gone in the lair without scrolls. The rage is good against this.

Maybe one other solution: Increase rage not only for each hit by one, but for any attack he cannot parry on highest level (for ranged attacks and multiple close combat attacks) and remove rage only by killing, not just hitting something. That way he can create at least a lot of attack strength when he is surrounded for longer time. It would be even possible to create LOTS of rage by “hunkerig” against low lvl arrows in the dungeon. That will not help to get cleave, full swing or press, but will allow a controlled way to create massive hits in difficult situations and a new unique style of playing (compared to the other characters).

May 13, 2021 5:37

Ok, this might sound like a real dumb observation…but what the HELL is the specter doing in a dungeon where you get +4 gear for the daily quest? next it’ll be gargantuan giants with your +3 gear or heck, why not just introduce red dragons against us in it.

May 13, 2021 9:39

Thanks, @Rellik. The +1 could be tweaked after testing. Maybe it’s +1 for missing and +2 for being hit.

Only losing rage if you kill something is interesting. Are you okay with the idea that you might want to avoid dragon kills to keep your rage?

A modification to my proposal could be:

You gain rage when you are hit or when you miss (with any weapon) on an attack that had >50% chance of hitting.

May 13, 2021 18:11

I suggest keeping the rage bonus low, even if it stacks, especially if rage is easir to achieve. Seems more logical to me that rage would be BIGGER on a miss than on taking a hit b/c when hit, you might be mad, but you also have the “oh sh+t, now I’m bleeding” factored in.

Human is such a sluggard. I rather have lower bonus rage, but he can attack one square away (but only to attack and only when raged). I know I suck b/c it’s too much like the dwarf. If you’re out of leaps you cant catch the dang dragon mages w/o taking 3 hits before you get it cornered. The dude is a slug!

May 13, 2021 23:52

Random idea for the slug: If you have at least 2 rage earned, you can “Dash” as an action, but it uses up 2 rage points. Dash would let you move two spaces, as long as there’s a path (no leaping over pits or monsters.)

To remove ambiguity with bull rush, we could say you can’t dash if there’s a monster along any possible path to your destination.

May 14, 2021 2:01

This is getting complicated.

Wouldn’t it be simpler if Indiana Jones simply drew his pistol and shot the Dragon Mage?

May 14, 2021 3:09

beetletoe, there is that. We’re all used to him, but newbs might be a little confused. Here’s a simple idea that just came to me that would be unique to the human and would fit in with RAGE….. rage and vengeance!

I think this would work even with some of the other changes, and, regardless, making feat-strings easier to achieve would help him move! That’s a good thing.

So here it is. Human maintains focus bonuses on any creature who causes rage. Something hits him, inducing rage; his focus bonus accumulates for that creature until it’s dead or Human leaves the room. A pathetic swing-and-miss? Same thing, “Nobody makes me look a fool and lives to tell about it!”

Look at his picture; he’s a violent thug who found a socially acceptable way to exercise his brutal compulsion. See, he’s got an anger management problem, and holds a grudge… until your dead!

That MIGHT be a simple tweak that tips the scale to even things up with the other two characters, is unique to Human and fits cleanly with his current attributes. Basically, unlimited focus!

It might not be a huge help against dragons, but he’ll at least have more resources left when he gets there.

May 14, 2021 22:09

I am quite a new player here, so please forgive me if my suggestions have already been proposed by someone else. Anyway, I have played enough to get involved into the game process and here is what I think needs to be improved.

  1. Magic dragons seems to be little unfair, as they can cast fireball spell and breathe in one turn. Two actions is too much, they should be limited to do either one of these but not both at the same time.

  2. It becomes really annoying to ramble through a large dragon lair. If it is 50+ dragon lair, the number of rooms can be somewhat like 10. Now imagine you decided that you want to change a hero. You will need to get out of the lair and then return back. Since all the rooms look the same and there is no map of the lair, this process becomes too annoying, especially if the tactics is strongly based on skills of different heroes and you swap them multiple times. Here is what I suggest: (i) add a map of the lair (like a map of ruins or caverns) but do not show it until it is revealed by heroes; (ii) if there is a clear path to the exit, there should be an option to swap the heroes instantly, like it is done everywhere else.

  3. Sometimes a battle tactics is strongly dependent on the sequence of turns (if there are many monsters present in the battle field). It would be nice to see a bar with this sequence, so that we know which monster is taking action after which. It might be unlocked at some higher level though, but it should be in the game.

  4. Little better description on the game mechanics is needed. For example, the elf with a mithril vest on has a dodge chance and a tinker. If being hit, what is the order of actions? Is it mithril first, then dodge, then tinker, or some other sequence? What if the elf is hit by a slime? What is it for parry skill of the knight or resist skill of the dwarf? There are many questions like that.

May 15, 2021 4:25

Vitaly: BTW, welcome to the mayhem. I understand your frustration RE: the Dragons. They are supposed to be tough, and are, brutally so. Consider- STD dragons get two attacks (breath and chomp) so there’s some logic to mage dragons also getting two. I’m not the best player here by a long shot, but my strategy is always gun for the mages first if possible, b/c they are the greatest threat. You’ll notice mages never bite and must be 1 hex away to breath fire. Using those facts strategically will help you. I think a map for the dragon’s lair, that defines the spaces after they’re visited, is a valid idea. You can also keep a little piece of scratch paper at your elbow and make one yourself w/ little circles and lines. It works b/c I’ve done it!

I disagree w/ needing to know the order of attack. (A separate issue is knowing - immediately - who’s “panicked” when a hero takes actions which can cause such reactions,) Knowing the order would be a MASSIVE advantage that would deeply effect game-balance. However, a MAGIC ITEM that bestows the ability for a limited time could be super-fun!

The game’s creators are very involved w/ the community here - to their credit - so they can answer your game mechanics questions best. But the defensive features would go from highest odds to lowest. The computer checks against each one until one “catches”, or they all fail- resulting in a hit. For instance, Elf has a +9 shield, it would go SHIELD, then DODGE then trinket.

You’ve chosen a great little game to play. Enjoy!

May 15, 2021 4:32

Sorry, I got that wrong about STD dragons. They get two MOVES per turn (example: move+breathe fire), not two attacks.

May 15, 2021 10:30

Hi, Vitaly.

The order of monster attack is not completely random. Casters always go first, then archers, then melee.

And that’s a good question about the order of the defensive checks.

The current order is:

1) Roll + modifiers
2) Parry/Dodge
3) Mithril
4) Resilience
5) Trinkets

We put resilience after mithril because the dwarf’s skin is under the mithril. However, it would be nice to keep all the hero-specific checks together. So maybe we’ll change it do this:

1) Roll + modifiers
2) Parry/Dodge/Resilience
3) Mithril
4) Trinkets

Does anyone care either way?

May 15, 2021 11:04

Welcome Vitaly. I agree with you that if there is a path through the lair back to the entrance, then it ought to be possible to change heroes more easily. The dragon mages are indeed a force to be reckoned with. I don’t always take them out first, because sometimes they can be advantageous. You can use them to block other dragons advancing through gaps, or try to guard against the fireballs and let them hit adjacent dragons. But you do have to keep watch on what they are doing if you try that.

The trinkets are always last to be used. The order of the others isn’t critical, because you don’t run out of Dodge or Mithril. Slime is either resisted or not; your weapons and trinkets do not work against the slime. It’s best avoided or burned.

May 15, 2021 14:30

Our Rage discussion focused on allowing the human to more easily trigger feats against dragons. Which got me to think about the feat system itself. Please look at what I am proposing in the dev-corner of our Discord. Let’s figure that out first, then finish up on Rage.

May 16, 2021 0:07

Hi, Rowdius.

Life would be simpler if we could limit our discussion to ONE web site. For my part, I have never been on Disccord, and it’s past my bedtime, so I definitely don’t intend to try to figure it out right now. Or maybe ever.

At the risk of inadvertently duplicating your idea, I can briefly mention an idea that I have been toying with.

One straightforward way to help to Human to catch up (and easy to implement, I think) would be to to award all Humans an automatic +1 on defense. That potentially addresses the Human’s greatest weakness. I suspect that such a change would not radically alter the way that the Human is played. It would simply make Indy slightly less likely to die on each turn.

Some of my thinking was based on the realization that the Dwarf gets bonuses on almost every turn, regardless of what the Dwarf does. Hunker in place when attacked = defensive bonus. Hunker when not attacked = gird loins. Charge attack = bonus. Only the simple melee attack on a neighboring square does not get an explicit bonus, so the cautious Dwarf should limit that move to cases where the Dwarf’s attack bonus and the enemy’s attack bonus are BOTH larger than the enemy’s defensive bonus, AND the enemy does not have a second remaining HP, AND there is no other enemy adjacent. In other words, the only time the Dwarf does not get a bonus is when the Dwarf probably does not need one.

How can the Human possibly compete with that if the Human only gets bonuses on special occasions (like his birthday, or he wins the Lottery)?

–Just a thought

May 16, 2021 0:12

Thanks everyone who responded to me.

@Chad Icon: I am ok with magic dragons to be little OP. I was just confused why STD dragons can attack only once per turn while magic dragons can do it twice. Anyway, let them be.

As far as sequence of the turns is concerned, I would not consider it as a massive advantage. Whereas this is a turn based game, it is not as sophisticated as HoMM for example, where the sequence of turns means everything. However, having known the sequence brings new tactical possibilities that can enrich the game tactics. Consider for example a situation, when you are next to a mage who is about to summon a powerful enemy, while the other mage is two tiles away and about to case a fireball. Also assume that the summoned creature will appear next to the mage at distance. If you know for sure that the second mage goes first, you would better defend, tank the fireball, and hope the the nearby mage gets killed by the fireball, so that the creature is not summoned. If otherwise you know that the nearby mage goes first, you jump to the place where the creature is about to emerge, fizzle his spell and attack the second mage who is about to cast fireball. Both of this choices are strongly based on the enemy turn sequence. Furthermore, any other choices but these two are definitely worse, as you will either hit by the fireball or you will need to deal with the summoned monster.

@Rowdius: Thanks, this is exactly what I was curious about. Speaking about mithril vest, the description tells it protects from any hit with 20% probability. Does it protect from slime or reaper hit as well?

I have another question. When an enemy moves towards to the hero and there are two possible ways, how is the choice of the way made? Pure randomly or somehow else? A good example of this is kiting monsters with the elf. Since the outer circle length is 12 tiles and the inner circle length is 6 tiles, the elf cannot run away from a monster if the monster does all smart moves. In the game however, they do stupid moves and allow elf the kite them. Is it done on purpose or randomly?

The other question is about sequence of moves again. I have noticed that the sequence is sometimes changes. Imagine that you kite an enemy with the elf and you also have a reaper chasing you. You plan to use the reaper as your damage dealer to kill the enemy you are kiting. I noticed the sometimes the sequence of turns of the enemy and the reaper changes (which is great for the tactics) but I could never figure out when it happens and how it can be triggered. Is it also random?

May 16, 2021 0:27

Footnote to the “mapping” discussion:

Keeping a Paint program open side-by-side with the Dungeoneers window, for mapping and note taking, is possibly less clunky than repeatedly switching the mouse and screen for a pencil and paper.

May 16, 2021 0:45

@beetletoe: while your suggestion might be true, the main motivation for lair map is to be able to instantly switch heroes and get from any cleared point to any other. The game is really missing this option.

May 16, 2021 0:49

Hi, Vitaly.

The path is sometimes random (including whether the Reaper or the other monster goes first when trying for the same square).

The choice is sometimes systematic (including that when monsters are chasing the Elf, who is running around the periphery of the room in circles, the monster either always chooses the shorter path (close to the room center, and keeps up with the Elf) or always chooses the longer path (and falls behind in the race) depending on whether the Elf is running clockwise or counter-clockwise. Definitely non-random.

May 16, 2021 1:02

Hi, VItaly.

There is already a character-switching box in the Ruins, Caverns, and Mines, which lights up (enabling switching) when a clear path exists back to the entrance. This box is superimposed on the level map (which is always the same in every game).

Perhaps that same box could be added to Lair rooms, and light up only in empty rooms that are connected to the main entrance by other empty rooms.

Drawing an actual map would be more problematic (from a graphics programming standpoint) because the Lair map is different very time; I think that the pathways sometimes cross; and it would deprive the players of the opportunity to figure out what to keep track of themselves.

May 16, 2021 3:43

Whether the monster moves onto the outside ring or not when chasing the elf seems to happen on one side of the room when going clockwise and the other side of the room when going counter-clockwise. But it’s definitely predictable.

I think the problem with adding the hero switching symbol to the rooms is simply that it’s quite big and would take up more of the screen. Perhaps it could appear (perhaps instead of the info box top right) if the room is empty and connected to the entrance.

I’ve always imagined that the rooms go up or down in the lair, so if they do cross, you are above or below the other one.

May 16, 2021 15:28

I always thought all enemy moves are totally random (in order and path if they have two choices) except that they stick to the current direction(clockwise/counterclockwise) of their move (which also has an exception at the start of a new possible branch). However, maybe it would be good to know more about that for clarity…
A hero-change button that shows up, if the path from the lair is clear is a great idea.
@Rowdius You are right, that we don’t need to discuss balancing-rage before these feat/massive-hit details are decided.

However, you asked about “leaving dragons alive” when rage-reset needs a kill. I think to leave dragons alive is a pretty bad idea as a human. A fleeing dragon is a dangerous dragon. It will probably cost a scroll to get it again. There might be exceptional cases where I decide to first try the deep cleave chance, but this is typically not worth, because you can have this, too after the 1-HP-dragon is dead. I would always prefer the dead dragon. I think the final reason is, that 2 dragons have 2 attacks and 1 dragon just 1. That is hardly compensated just by a higher hit chance.

May 16, 2021 17:48

Kudos to Tandu for getting 50 dragons with the human in the tournament!

Agree with Rellik that for the human, it’s usually better to get rid of the fleeing dragon (or not allow it to flee) if you can. Otherwise they sit just out of range breathing fire at you while you’re fighting something else. They don’t hit you any less because they’re on 1 hit point. And if it’s still next to you, it’s removing your full swing bonus and your chance to cleave. In a situation where I had rage, enough scrolls or hp, an enlarged mage dragon, and another on 1 hit point, I might hit the mage first while I have the attack points. But I think it would be very much a tactical decision and not the norm.

May 16, 2021 20:36

As far as I know, if a monster has two possible move options, the choice is random. If you think it’s predictable, please let us know how – that would be a bug.

Whether or not the movement should be predicable is another question. I tend to think it shouldn’t because any such rule would probably be complicated and a lot to think about, and not knowing which way they will go adds some suspense.

May 16, 2021 23:23

@rowdius: Very simple example: If you run around a pit and reach the opposite side (each move), the monster will always “follow” you in the same (clockwise or anticlockwise) direction. It does not change the direction although it would have a random choice each turn.
I always thought this is intended.

May 16, 2021 23:41

I remember now that if a monster has two equal move options, and one of the moves involves backtracking (moving back to the space it was on), it will always choose the path that does not involve backtracking. Does that explain what you are observing? Or is there something else?

We should document that rule.

May 17, 2021 9:00

I think, that is what is observed Rowdius! Of course that might have implications in more difficult situations and the user might miscalculate some complex move chances. That said (and being such a user) I must say, that I like that rule. It gives “chasings” a good flow and somehow feels more natural. Of course it means, that the user cannot calculate precisely from the current state alone what will happen next or needs to look at the orientations. But as I said, I accept that handicap.

Maybe a more general rule which includes that behaviour could be to take that path that needs less “turn arounds” (minimize orientation difference). This rule might also apply differences, when dragons turn-to-breath after their move. However, this leads to major differences like that the monsters stick to the wall when following the hero in circles through the room (which is exactly the wrong decision from the monsters perspective). It might be cool to make a difference here between intelligent monsters and stupid ones as late unlock.

May 17, 2021 9:22

Re: monsters sticking to the walls, and the current pattern of monsters pursuing the Elf:

One of the current strengths of the Elf (fighting against non-fire-breathing monsters) is that:

Once the number of monsters in the room is reduced to 1, the Elf has an almost guaranteed kill, while taking no further damage. (Finding which direction of travel causes the monster to stick to the wall; then repeatedly running and shooting.)

When the number of opposing monsters is reduced to 2, the kill is not guaranteed, but is very high probability.

Main point:

If you make the monster smarter, or even randomize the move, then you make the Elf weaker, relative to the Dwarf and Human. Taking away the guaranteed kill eventually costs scrolls and potions, making the Elf less effective.

Is this a good idea to do that?

I don’t believe that it is, given that (my general impression) that higher-level Elves are currently playing about on a par with Dwarves that are lower-level than the Elf.

Right now, the balance is fairly good between the Elf defensive weakness (rolling only d8 and having only 2 HP) versus being able to avoid damage (using a combination of skills and defensive tactics). Mess with that, and you risk reverting to the bad old days when the Elf stopped being competitive.

–My two cents

May 17, 2021 10:38

GOD DAMN CHEATERS!!!!

May 17, 2021 10:38

@Rellik - having the monster choose the direction with the least change in their facing is a good idea. I think we’d want to first implement a way to be sure which way the monster is facing. It would be nice to do that anyway, since we added the stealth facing rule. I don’t think I mind if it assures that a monster chasing the elf will always stick to the wall, since in that case it’s usually a matter of time till the elf will prevail, and it would thus speed things up. The larger issue is whether removing the randomness of the move direction will make the game more or less interesting in all the other cases. Curious what everyone thinks.

@beetletoe - I’m don’t think there is currently a “direction of travel that causes the monster to stick to the wall.” If you think there is, can you explain exactly how that works?

May 17, 2021 12:22

My impression was that if you go clockwise they move out somewhere around the top of the screen, and if you go anticlockwise they move out somewhere around the bottom of the screen.

But I just tried an experiment in a room with a single monster (giant) and the elf in a room with no pits. I got the giant onto the outer ring behind the elf and then repeatedly moved two spaces away and guarded (rather than taking my free shot). The giant will move back onto the inner ring on occasion, and he will stay on the inner ring on occasion instead of moving to the outer ring (no free shot), and he will do that from any corner. Similarly once he is on the inner ring he may or may not move out. But it doesn’t feel like 50/50 where he has a choice between two equal paths. It feels more like 33/66 that he will stay on the inner ring or move in vs staying on the outer ring or moving out. I didn’t count, so my perception may be wrong or it could be chance. One would need to count and do the stats to answer that. I did try both directions. Same as the slimes in the tunnels tend to stick to the walls.

In the tunnels, I assumed that the slimes have a 1/3 chance of any of their forward directions, but when they are near the edge so one is unavailable, they choose the adjacent available hex if the unavailable one is chosen instead of rolling again, giving 2/3 staying by the edge, and 1/3 of moving into the room.

I am not complaining about this. I don’t mind either the slimes or the monsters moving in this way around the edge. It is advantageous for the monsters to frequently move to a suboptimal position (for them).

May 17, 2021 13:04

Hi, Rowdius.

If you pick a direction to go, clockwise or counterclockwise, then the monster will EITHER stay on the inside track (100% of the time) or the outside track (most of the time).

Suppose that it picks the inside track (which is not what you want). Then, when YOU reverse direction, the monster’s choice immediately flips, and it gets to the outside track as fast as possible (pits permitting).

Once it arrives in the outside track, it mostly tends to stay there, only occasionally coming inside temporarily.

May 17, 2021 13:18

@beetletoe - The behavior of staying on the inside track 100% of the time only happens if the elf is leaping in such a manner that the inside track is the shorter path. If the two paths are the same distance to the hero, it’s random which path the monster will take. The exception, as discussed above, is if one of those paths requires the monster to backtrack. Maybe that’s why changing the direction seems to make difference - because in that case you might be forcing one of the paths to be a backtrack.

May 17, 2021 23:44

In my opinion it is generally a good idea to let the monsters move more predictable and “faster to death”, but not of high priority. It is especially bare hand who will win something. He needs to sneak through rooms and often enough fails to do so. The human would be able to “pass” single monsters quite sure with that “lazy rule”. Another effect will be that archers might be less annoying, because they will not so much tend to move on the dangerous center field when following. I am not sure what else this change would do. I just want to make clear that this is not just a small change, but has noticable effects in certain situations in the game. One should think about the whole move-system before just “making changes”. Do we want special clever monsters or not? Is the “stupidy” of the moves worth the faster gameplay? Is it wished, that monsters behave more predictable and situations are less luck dependend (maybe this is the main reason for the change)?

May 18, 2021 5:16

Personally, I’m quite happy with the monster movement as it is. Knowing which monster will move first and where it will move is, of course, an advantage but I’m quite happy with the application of some general rules (shortest route, for example) and then random after that.

Realised that the slimes, when moving round the outside of a room, only have an opportunity to move in when they are not in a corner. When they are in a corner, there is only one possible forward-facing space (next hex round the room). So this probably makes it look like they are sticking to the wall even if there is a 50/50 chance that they will move in when they are on the outside edge, but not in the corner.

I suspect that Rowdius is right that the combination of the shortest path + no backtracking rules makes the movement of a monster chasing the elf less random. Because beetletoe is right that if you reverse direction you can get the monster to move out. And I’m sure Rowdius is looking at the code and thinking “we work out the shortest allowed routes, and then use the RNG to choose between them”.

May 18, 2021 9:35

Really tired of the monster showing “panicked” AFTER you make your move, hope you fix that eventually.

May 18, 2021 9:53

With the last release, we changed the defense check order to:

1) Roll + modifiers
2) Parry/Dodge/Resilience
3) Mithril
4) Trinkets

The only thing above that can prevent a Slime hit is the dwarf’s resilience. Any of the above, except #1, can prevent a Reaper hit.

May 18, 2021 14:53

Any of the above, except #1, can prevent a Reaper hit. And is a real “woohoo” moment when it happens. Roll a 1 to survive. (You aren’t defending!) :-)

May 18, 2021 15:13

Interesting, I have NEVER been successful against the reaper, he always hits, which is why I ALWAYS stay 2 squares away from him so I can shoot him.

May 19, 2021 11:45

Without doubt, that’s the safest strategy. And if you’re only one hex away (usually because you missed when he was further back) then make for the exit! (Elf has more choice)

There are some other strategies, particularly if you’re playing with the dwarf who can summon the worm or have strong weapons and have a good chance of hitting an already-injured reaper.

And of course, there are occasional situations where the reaper appears and you are trapped. Fighting might be your only option.

May 20, 2021 0:23

I’m stuck in an unfinished daily hunt. When I press continue, I get a “Room 500” error and is sent back to the screen, where I can choose to continue. Is there any way to abort the hunt? I cannot find a way out.

May 20, 2021 0:28

Did you know, that bare hand has no reaper? Small unlocks rock ;)

Observation: The elf wins the hunt.
In my opinion this is due to the better chance to get to the exit if trouble is in the house.
Proposal:
Bring the hunt exit closer to the entrance for human and brawler (on the same side).
Sounds like cheating, but could be more fair and I don’t have a better idea.

May 20, 2021 12:55

From my experience, the Elf sometimes wins the hunt, and sometimes does not, depending on what sorts of beasties the Elf finds inside them. And by “win”, I assume that we mean either “get more Xs” or “get 100 Xs”.

My specific experience was based on a period of time when I was trying to rank up the Elf, first (and then letting the Dwarf see if he could get further on the same layout) or trying to rank up the Dwarf, first (and then seeing if the Elf could get further). There was no consistent result from me.

In several cases, the Dwarf got further, largely because the team Dwarf-plus-Worm was very effective against a series of 2-HP monsters that were strong enough to hit the Dwarf occasionally if they had been given the opportunity to take any shots at all on the Dwarf.

In contrast, the Elf is frequently surprise-attacked by the Worm, making it necessary to waste scrolls early on to make sure that the Worms are all dead.

So, perhaps while Bare Hand is moving the exit closer, he should also provide the Elf and Human with an Elephant gun to use on Jack-in-the-Box.

P.S. One other thing that I frequently notice is that that the Elf can (randomly) be hit by so many very weak enemies that it is pointless to spend scrolls (or re-do moves) trying to defend its early HP. In effect, regardless of how many potions the (rolls-a-d8) Elf gets at the start of the hunt, the vast majority of the Hunt is only played with 3HP total, consisting of the last 2 HP (while running on adrenaline), plus the 1 re-do move (that will get one 1HP back unless the Elf unluckily loses both HP on the same turn).

In contrast, given that the Dwarf rolls a d12 on defense…the Dwarf’s EARLY HP are actually useful for something, against the same set of monsters that the Elf has to deal with.

So that when the Dwarf gets more than 1 potion to start, those extra potions are actually very valuable; and when the Elf gets them, they quickly go in the trash.

–Just a few observations.

As for the Human, Indy needs better defense, like maybe a gun.

May 20, 2021 13:12

In the alternative, maybe in some future version of the game, the Human should get to start the game with a pet Dire-wolf.

May 20, 2021 14:03

The elf does not always get further, but wins the hunt. That is not the same. I cannot remember a single hunt where the elf could not win. I won the hunt once with dwarf, but only tried hard to break the elf streak. And the HP-monster-theory is not right. I clearly won with the elf against the ettins (141? and then resigned) after having to give up with dwarf and humans around 70. It is all the time the same strategy, also against mummies and gargoyles: Skip tough rooms A LOT if you want to win the hunt. Another option would be to increase the monster density/size after room 42 (just to give a number) again to avoid that this strategy is the winning one.

May 20, 2021 14:39

@Bare Hand - no Reaper for me either. Did you keep your fame low enough to not have Ropers as well? And it used to be that I only lost one room in the Ruins, so the potions were usually available, but once they changed it the normal weapons kept being put in the same locked Boss rooms as the golden ones. Guess you don’t know if they fixed that yet.

No monster dens is a mixed blessing - the rooms are easier, but there’s no chance of extra potions from them.

May 20, 2021 15:06

(That should be one monster den in the mines and caverns of course, and not two, since the first dens are unlocked early.)

And still for Basic Dungeoneers at low fame levels, the normal weapons are being put in the locked boss ruins rooms with the golden ones. No available sword this time in the ruins - it’s in the Lair of the Mummy King along with a golden bow or something. Lucky I got a good roll in the caverns.

May 20, 2021 19:44

Candibal, thanks for reporting that. It should be fixed now.

May 20, 2021 23:27

Of course no ropers! I don’t like them.
Luckily bare hand does not need weapons. But maybe this is not a bug, but a feature. When you unlock these rooms, then you get new (normal) weapons. Maybe this is intended? A bit strange, but who knows. Monster dens are a good point. That epxlains, why I always drop so few health… maybe I should go for R&R (ropers and reapers)…

May 21, 2021 8:35

Skipping rooms during the hunt is a mixed bag.

On some hunts, you skip a difficult room, and then see easy ones after that.

On some other hunts, you can see rooms that are too full of high-level monsters to fight them, followed by rooms that are even worse.

So, sometimes, after you skip a difficult room (and perhaps spend scrolls doing so), you have to go back and fight the monsters, because the subsequent rooms turned out to be even more crowded and dangerous than the ones that were skipped.

I am curious about what the algorithm is for determining how difficult the average hunt room is, as the room number increases; and why that algorithm produces results that seem so different on different days. Anyone have any idea?

May 21, 2021 11:31

We had a discussion before about how quickly the hunt progresses in terms of the chance of quarry and overall number of monsters in a room, but not about the overall size of the monsters. They clearly get larger. I guess we need Rowdius or Masterleep for that one.

As you say, skipping rooms needs consideration because (as designed) the hunt rooms gradually get bigger and more monsters. I only do it rarely, but then I only do average in the hunt, and I don’t normally play the elf, who probably uses that tactic more frequently.

May 21, 2021 13:51

Thats the point. But believe me. Easy rooms always come. At least I never saw an end. The rooms are not any more so crowded, that you cannot jump through. Here I indeed needed a jump:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/838439791610953750/841242251601510421/unknown.png?width=814&height=612
But typically the elf does not need scrolls to skip the room. It can happen that I skip 5 rooms in a row in a run onto 150 mummies or gargoyles. Or you can be lucky like here:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/838439791610953750/844247724182339594/unknown.png?width=824&height=613
Where I could take out 8 huge Ettins because the room is split in two halfs with just a corner that connects it. The point is, that high-rank elf results work: Use leap, haste and vanish scrolls almost only for skipping and only if there is no other way to skip. Of course the final fights are still tough and it is very difficult to decide to skip or not to skip, but at least the elf has this chance. The others not. Maybe it is OK that the elf is the best hunter. I don’t know.

May 23, 2021 20:08

Hey folks!

I know I haven’t been around much, but thank you again for all of your hard work.

I thought that undo had some unexpected behaviour before, and I finally have a good example: in the hunt from which I’m sending you this, I attacked a gas spore the wrong way (I thought I had selected a bow attack, but accidentally charged it instead) and took damage while simultaneously triggering a feat. When I attempted to undo my attack to avoid the damage, I got an error message saying I needed to complete a turn in the room before I could use undo, so I completed the turn by taking my feat action and then selected undo. Undo reset the action only to the point of my feat action, and not to the beginning of the turn, which I understand to be the expected behaviour (unless, of course, this has changed, as I haven’t been keeping up).

In either case, this appears to be a bug: either undo should be allowed immediately after an action that triggers a feat, or selecting undo after all feat actions are completed should reset the room to before the point that the first feat was triggered (i.e. the actual beginning of the turn).

Thanks again for all of your hand work on this awesome game.

Cheers!

May 23, 2021 23:19

The 2 specters in this game has a hidden game mechanic that is not written anywhere in the rules. If you are next to the specter + the purple worm attacks the specter, the specter will still target you and completely ignore the worm. If this is suppose to be critical aspect of the specter, please include this in the written rules.

May 26, 2021 6:48

ONCE AGAIN - YOU CHEATING PIGS !!!!!!

May 26, 2021 16:40

@ Dread Stalker; Pigs? I haven’t run in to any in any of my runs, where do you find them?

What kind of cheating happened?

May 26, 2021 23:28

@Earthhunder That must be a proposal for a new kind of monster “cheating pig” that don’t have attack value or defense, but can vanish and dodge attacks like the elf @beetletoe, now here is less chat, because more is on discord, have you been there now?

May 27, 2021 10:01

When switching out to Elf, sword attack should be default on a 2 hexagon jump.

May 27, 2021 13:17

@Earththunder - there’s some Wereboars in the caverns. Do they count as pigs?
They don’t cheat though.

Wereboar + Dodge = “cheating pig” would be a good enemy, and at the same time very frustrating to play against! Maybe an unlock? :-)

May 27, 2021 16:50

Getting pigged out would be an interesting situation.

May 27, 2021 18:13

I Thought this was a Hunt for “Swamp Trolls”????

The how come all I am encountering are Were Wolves????

May 27, 2021 18:21

WHERE ARE THE SWAMP TROLLS????????????

I have been through at least 10 boards of the “DARK FOREST” and 95% of what I have encountered NOT trolls!!

GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!

If this is a “DAILY HUNT” for trolls - THEN by damned AT LEAST THE VERY LEAST 75% of the monsters you encounter SHOULD be what the hunt is titled ABOUT!

May 27, 2021 20:43

Daily “hunt”…hunting, takes hours and hours, even an entire day to find the 1 animal you want, and so it is with daily hunt, NOW we know why it’s called daily hunt, you spend all day looking for the one you want.

I think you should introduce the whip as a weapon to tie up (or hit multiple) those damn ropers so you can fight other monsters while within 3 spaces of them (using fire to stop them is only good for so long and only if you even have a scroll which happens sometimes.

May 28, 2021 17:37

I totally agree with Dread Stalker. Today’s hunt was about ettins, yet first 5-10 rooms I was mostly fighting with ghosts, ghouls, wraiths, specters, even fire bugs and killer frogs but not ettins. Then suddenly there are rooms going one by one with 10+ overgrown ettins in each, so that you cannot even see where to move to. And that was not an unlucky generation, I repeated the hunt 5+ times and it was the same again and again.

May 28, 2021 18:30

Giving up on killing Ettins because I can’t see the board well enough. They are too big for the board.

May 28, 2021 23:38

Vitaly and Dread Stalker:
The point is: When you get +3 potions for the “non-ettins”, then you should have some of them somewhere. The hunt is designed such that the farer you hunt the more “pure” are the rooms.
What I can support is to use a counter of the hunt objects presented to determine the size (and not use the room number for that). So e.g. there is a fixed number of smallest ettins (e.g. 10), 20 normal ones etc. such that there are 100 that are not colossal or titanic. This number can be independent of the probability, but if it used up no other of that size appears (e.g. it is replaced by a titanic one). That way it cannot happen what you describe: That you enter a room of HUGE ones before finding any small ones.

By the way: I also had the feeling, that the ettins are on average bigger than other hunt enemies, but I think that feeling just comes from the fact that 2-3 size steps are already a real danger far beyond the own weapons.

May 30, 2021 11:03

Please add the option to skip animations

May 30, 2021 23:33

Zenor - have you seen the setting to speed up the animations in the Options dialog?

May 31, 2021 9:55

Playing the elf, I got hit by a ghoul after a bow attack (so 0 defense). I got stunned. I noticed that on the subsequent rounds where I was stunned I also had 0 defense and so got hit again!

Not sure if that’s a bug or not. One to be aware of, though, if you’re trying a risky bow attack on gas spores (like I was) and they miss the monsters they are supposed to take out.

May 31, 2021 14:50

Dropping back in after a couple months away. I don’t see any announcement in the news about it, but the human now plays an electric guitar riff whenever he Cleaves, and that never used to happen. Is this a permanent change, or is there some sort of Metal Month promotion that I didn’t know about?

Jun 1, 2021 13:50

The guitar riff has been in a while now. I think it was mentioned under “sharper sword” some way back in the forum.

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