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Player feedback from April 2021
Dungeoneers
Apr 1, 2021 4:31

This topic contains player feedback for this month that the player approved for the forum.

Apr 1, 2021 4:31

I want to propose an idea for more interesting effects in the battle: Make the summoned creatures of random size (with a cap on the size that depends on the mage?). In my opinion spells should have different “quality”.

Apr 1, 2021 12:13

… And how does summoning work right now?

Apr 1, 2021 14:41

I don’t know if there is ANY difference between the mages. Kobolds can summon ogres and dragons beatles. If that beatle could be titanic and that ogre normal (at max) that would somehow fit better. Of course a titanic archer or mage can be a real new danger, but if the size is random that does not happen too often.

Apr 1, 2021 20:44

For summoning, the only difference is that mages only summon monsters at/above the dungeon level they are on (so no Ruins monsters into the Mines, for example).

Apr 2, 2021 14:28

For daily hunt’s. if the monster has more then 1 HP. Then how about it gives more then 1 quest item. Example. mummy with 2 heal, 2 bandages.

Apr 2, 2021 17:42

Here’s a little strategical tidbit for all my Dungeoneer homies. If the path TO the exit that the Crawler is heading TOWARD is blocked - by anything, including you - it will sit and wait until it is open. If you can arrange to be the thing blocking while the Crawler is two spaces away, you can take leisurely pot-shots at it (as I just did w/ Elf and a super-crap bow) until it dies an ignoble, pin-cushiony death.

This (I hope) is not a bug. This is one of those nifty things you learn by wasting your life playing this stupendous game.

That still only counts as one!!

Apr 3, 2021 3:49

Woohoo! 108 wearboars

Apr 3, 2021 7:29

I have a question about stealth leap attack w/ Elf. Ok, so you switch “on” leap attack, then leap attack two, or more, baddies (let’s say two, b/c that can be done w/o using a scroll).

The sword gives Elf an additional “prowl bonus” to the stealth bonus. The bow doesn’t. Since Elf makes that attack on both baddies w/ one move, do ALL the bonuses apply to both baddies (they should), or only to the first in the “simultaneous” series?

Because if NOT, Elf might be more reticent about such actions. You pickin’ up what I’m throwin’ down?

No, Precious, no crunchable birdses…

Apr 3, 2021 10:38

You only get the bonus on the first attack. It might make more sense for the bonus to apply to all the attacks during the leap, but it would be a difficult change to make because the code does not treat the actions as simultaneous.

Apr 3, 2021 10:49

You can see the bonuses on the dice rolls. Slow down the animation speed if you need more time to see it.

Apr 3, 2021 12:43

185 Wereboar nose rings. My personal record.
It seems that the trinkets working on a rolled 2 while guarding really does make a difference. Unless it’s normal for people to kill 70 reds like this week…

Apr 3, 2021 14:44

Indeed I haven’t done that before. Last time I went on 70 in tournament I got a full epic 7,7,7 drop and died while searching desperately for further garbage in minor lair chests (because everything else is a resign). This time I had pretty good drops from 40 on. The worst was the last game, which was a 7,8,9 drop (but fits to the dwarf).
I took the dwarf on 70, to show that new elf is not OP compared to him.

But I think you got it right Tandu. The runs felt “easy” or “lucky”. Trinkets might be the reason. The 2-trinket is indeed a great increase in defense. This can be easily adjusted my reducing the total number of trinkets. I like the idea, that they are (all) really used instead of “just having more of them”.
On average the luck dependency is decreased if we often use them all.

Apr 3, 2021 18:04

Rowdius, I suspected as much by the way the screen changes (and the little “everyone-now-knows-you’re-here” sound). And I agree, it SHOULD apply to all her victims. But it is what it is. I understand, better than you might imagine, how one can become a slave to the code’s legacy after so much has been already invested.

Good to know toward making informed choices in the game.

I’m curious, how does the code decide WHICH of the two - being equidistant during a standard leap - is the first? If it is always the weaker, or always the stronger, knowing would help immensely in said strategic decision-making.

Apr 3, 2021 18:44

Her first attack will be on the target against which she has the higher attack bonus. The main reason for that is so that if she has focus on one of the targets, she’ll attack that one first - otherwise she’d lose the focus bonus when she attacked another monster first.

Apr 4, 2021 6:00

OK. Thanks for the info.

Now that Elf must eat fireballs like crow (a head-scratcher, since she has THE WORST! defense die. And, if memory serves, has been able to counter-attack same since the very beginning), it’s time to finally give her 3-health like everyone else.

Or… start taking a real hard look at that legacy code that defies logic during… wait for it… SIMULTANEOUS attacks.

I love you guys, but this fire-ball decision really pisses me off. Spare me the “reasons”. I know ya’ll always have the reasons. I don’t care what they are, so save the strain on your little typie-fingers.

Apr 4, 2021 14:05

I seem to have completed a 16 dragon campaign while only being famous for 15 black. Did you untie the campaigns from the career level?

Apr 4, 2021 15:51

Yes, Raand, we did.

Apr 4, 2021 17:56

Enough of this Humongous, Gargauntuan Monster Nonsense!!!!!!!

You CAN NOT SEE where open spots are in the forest, cavverns, ETC when there are SO MANY!!!!

Apr 4, 2021 21:30

I agree, when the opponents are rather large, like Colossal ettins or giants, it’s impossible to see what’s behind them. I can’t see pits, open tiles or a bit smaller monsters because they are completely obscured by bigger things in front of them. Just recently I accidentally killed a helping Purple Worm because I couldn’t see what I was aiming (no, the monster window didn’t show the worm, just an ettin). The monster window (upper right quadrant) should update based on what’s under the cursor, not just show the last monster until the next one comes along. It’s hard to know if a tile is empty when the monster window is stuck on showing some ettin that may be on the other side of the board or even already dead.

Apr 5, 2021 6:02

And I couldn’t see the empty space that I needed to put flame in to stop the colossal ettin moving next to me Or the hag that was occupying a route that I had mistakenly thought I could sneak along through the ettins to mount a surprise massive attack on a hag witch and launch a feat chain. Even carefully hovering over every single hex on the board and looking to see if the top-right picture has changed cannot distinguish between pits and open tiles (Tandu’s suggestion of having the monster window show whatever the current tile is even if its a pit or empty would help). Ettins, particularly, make it very difficult to see because they are wide as well and have two heads. I had one room where I couldn’t even see how many ettins there were to fight, let alone where I was or what was next to me!

It’s good that the monsters are shown in different appropriate sizes. But Ettin hunts really need that proposed button to make everything small!

Apr 6, 2021 3:13

Dread Stalker, Tandu, Raand9999, you understand “…it never made sense…” being able to see the whole room amongst a sea of giant, colossal and super-big monsters. Just think about it, you know, ‘cause the logic is quite sound. Certainly IRL you’d have the same problem before you leap over them while hacking w/ your sword.

Apr 6, 2021 7:15

IRL I would maybe know where in a room/cave/area I am. I might see what I’m attacking. If I couldn’t see the other end of the room I’d understand. If I couldn’t see what’s right in front of me then I’d call myself blind and retire from dragonslaying business.

Apr 6, 2021 14:24

@Chad Icon. You’re off the mark. I can see where I’m leaping to. I can’t see where I’m leaping from. I’ve no issue seeing the back of the monster ettin my hero is facing!

I suspect changing the game to give a first-person shoot-em-up style to get that “realistic” view would require rather a lot of rewriting, new artwork, probably a new underlying game engine, and would change the characteristic of the game. And I’m not sure it would actually solve the problem of not being able to see what’s where, since now I’d be able to see the front of the monster ettin but not the back. So you’d still be asking for a minimap. On the other hand, temporarily using smaller pieces on the board so the player can see all of it sounds much more straightforward to actually do.

Apr 6, 2021 14:27

The button to shrink everything is approaching top of the list.

Apr 6, 2021 15:52

You’re right, raand9999. I was off the mark with my snotty snark. It was facetious and not helpful to the conversation. I am sorry to everyone who had to experience it.

I was thinking a button that makes all the enemies seem transparent, as when the heroes are in stealth-mode. That would be cooler and would help keep that threatening feeling alive for the player. But Rowdius’s “shrink” is probably easier to implement and that’s ok.

Not a protest at the “fix” but when I was in that situation, I was kind-a like, “This is part of the escalating difficulty,” and was mostly ok with it, though it was confusing and… um, difficult.

I would also like to suggest that the “window” that shows enemy stats when cursor is over it, instead show info about whatever hex it’s over - enemy, pit, fire, whatever. It’s hard to see, sometimes, in a crowd of dragons too. Maybe that’s redundant with shrink. idk

Also, for Elf’s leaping, if the leap is out of her range, the cursor should change back to normal (or turn red or something) instead of giving “text” bad news after the click.

I’ve hear enough. Stick an arrow in his gob.

Apr 6, 2021 18:04

The elf is not getting her defense bonus for distance attacks, bug or new feature? Because that is a major nerf if it is planned.

Apr 6, 2021 18:52

There comes a point where it shifts from “difficult” to “frustrating”. I lost at least four hit points including my last one in the ettin hunt just because I couldn’t see. Of course if you like a challenge, just don’t press the button :-)

I thought transparent might be a cool solution too, but Rowdius came up with making everything small and actually after thinking about it I think that might be better as even with transparency if you are looking through a few monsters it might still be confusing.

Apr 6, 2021 22:50

Castillian - What do you mean by the elf not getting her defense bonus for distance attacks? Are you referring to the +20% dodge against missle/breath? We don’t put the dodge bonus next to the dice because dodge does not affect the chance of the monster scoring a hit. Rather, if the monster does score a hit, dodge gives a chance that you can dodge the hit and take no damage.

Apr 7, 2021 7:14

After the campaign is free to progress I succeeded in 4 and 5 dragons campaign with bare hands in the first try. To celebrate, I made a screenshot-compilation of the 5-red journey. So you can get a feeling how it looks going through like that. The lair was tough with so few pits and fire scrolls, but they could not hold me down. :)

Apr 7, 2021 7:20

Buglike behaviour: I just recognized (see images above), that the screenshot tool of firefox does not include the pits! (In there lair, there was one pit next to the treasure chest).

Apr 7, 2021 13:16

I too started playing campaigns larger than my fame.

Well done consistently taking out several dragons with that wooden sword from the villagers!

Apr 8, 2021 7:22

OK,

I have been playing for a long time, at level 260 using a level 23 human in the tournament.

Used to think this game had “honest” dice rolls and random level but starting to think it is not completely random. I have completed levels with 50+ dragons and left with healing potions left over…..for the last 3 weeks, cannot complete the tourney past 20 red dragons…

today, I counted in

Apr 8, 2021 7:25

That was weird, hit enter instead of back-space….

Anyways, today I counted 16+ rolls of less than a 6-roll (that is with a 12-sided dice). What are the odds, it could be figured but I don’t want to try…..

Started the 30-level tournament, got to the dragon lair with 13 healing potions but only a +7 sword (with the human that is bad). However, 16+ rolls of 6 or less just seals your fate…..lost the level with 15+- dragons left….a complete wipe out.

Starting to think the game is rigged or they made the dice-rolls “less random”…..getting less-fun… :)

Apr 8, 2021 7:27

Agree with Dread Stalker, the Humongous, Gargauntuan stuff is non-sense….you cannot even see the room and them paired against 4, 5, 6 or more 13+ monsters with only a +7 weapon is not even realistic….

Please stop over-sizing monsters…..just make a few “stronger” monsters that are normal size so you can see the board!!

Apr 9, 2021 17:00

Something has changed. There’s a shortage of potions (especially) and scrolls that’s evident across the board. I thought it was just me - and the vagaries of chance - at first. I don’t think that any more. Not after an entire week+. Something has changed

Apr 10, 2021 1:54

I propose a new skill for human; Autoguard, after moving. Say 50% chance, or only when not in melee contact. Would help closing distance w. non-melee units. Also, normal bull-rush is unusable because it causes no panic. U always choose normal attack for safety. Bull-rush should cause panic.

Apr 10, 2021 1:58

Ideas for new enemies (especially undead section, which is most monotonic in enemy types:) Hell hound, that would move 2 hex or attack after moving. Golem, that would be immune to first attack. Chimera, that would randomly fire spines or move to melee. Duergar, invisible until attack in melee.

Apr 10, 2021 6:25

For high-lvl players. Ideas for game challenge other than a constant increase in foe numbers.
THESE ARE JUST IDEAS</STRONGbr> 1) Enemies start learning from mistakes (yeah, I know there are almost never survivors to share the tales, but just roll w/ me here): Initially, maybe behavior. Human enemies won’t approach - after first shoved-in-a-pit victim - a hex between Human and pit. They wait. If a standoff ensues, maybe they go call in an archer or two.

  • Maybe they start getting wise, like not moving next to flames when moving next to flames makes you die.
  • Maybe stronger baddies w/ shields start doing some shoving and charging of their own (with a little "!" symbol "grrr, I'm gonna do this..." above their heads the turn previous. Similar to what's done w/ magic-user-baddies currently)
  • Perhaps it dawns on them... "We could work together!, then they, you know, start working together making formations- fighters and/or shields in front, archers and magic-users behind. Especially 2nd dungeon lvl and up as they are more sophisticated and all. Maybe they move to guard the treasure (see below)
  • Upon consideration - after getting chomped a few times - baddies stop standing next to pits when fighting Dwarf! (On a side note, maybe a wounded Wormy, after eating, say, 10 enemies or something, regains a life-bar.))
    • 2) Start hiding/locking-up/using treasure: (maybe the shamans in the room move to actually *use* scrolls, as any sensible sentient would. Now I usually try to take out the sparkle-fingers first, but if they're heading for the treasure chest, that would become *ALWAYS*).
      • Maybe everyone in room wakes TF up when magic weapon is touched
    • Perhaps the Chief Baddy in the room moves to grab, and use, magic weapon. Hero gets it upon slay-age.
    • Mayhap our Hero cannot see what mammon is in the room until the chest gets opened. Maybe one goody-two-shoes is really good at picking locks (team idea... yeah, I know it's anachronistic). Maybe another white-hat can bash it open really quick. Could there be a chance one of the baddies has the key stashed in its boot? Search-time and noise creates ever-increasing odds that some wondering monster will come see what all the ruckus is about. MAYBE the heroes could relock said chest and come back to it later!
    So, there are endless ideas - other than "More monsters. MORE! MORE MONSTERS!!" - to keep things interesting and challenging. If you'd like to hear more, just say, "Mr. Icon, I'd like to hear more." Or, "Not bad, Chad. What else ya got?" ALSO: an edit button? Yeah, on the forum? That would be a sauce of awesome on it.
Apr 10, 2021 12:43

wow. the above is a perfect example of where an edit button would prove useful. what a mess. Sorry…. blush

Apr 10, 2021 19:33

The zero defense for distance shots is a feature, not a bug. I took a potshot at a gas spore hoping that the explosion would take out the orcs surrounding me, but of course it missed them all. They got free melee attacks against zero defense bonus, and I got popped a couple of times.

However, I repeated the action with the human, and it did the same thing. I was not aware / had forgotten about this mechanic. Standard D and D rule, obviously you can’t use a shield while holding a bow. But it sucks when you have a +6 shield and get 0.

Apr 13, 2021 11:59

@ Chad Icon;

So you want to punish players who make it to high levels from hard work by making the game harder and not giving them ANY reward in return, how about just make the game have a mega gargantuan giant with a bow who has +30 to hit and defense and is blocking the exit and never moves so we just die? If you’re going to give the monsters a huge edge you have to give the player a reason to challenge them, just making them smarter/bigger/magic using able just to kill us is an excellent way to make players quit

Apr 13, 2021 13:14

I have a thought for a tweak. Would it be possible/sensible to limit the number of Dragon Mages in a room to 3 or even 2? I encountered four Dragon Mages, sleeping in a semi-circle around the entrance of a 6-dragon-occupied room, as the first room in a dragon lair run, and it seemed a bit much, especially when they decided they all wanted to summon everything from kobolds to ettins to fireballs in as first responses. I lost count of the creatures I had to fight in that mess and I felt as if I had experienced Wile E. Coyote’s latest experiment in a dynamite shack when I was done LOL. Still, seemed a bit much. Just a thought. :-)

Apr 13, 2021 16:25

Glenden - We could. Or does the chance of occasional Wile E. Coyote moments add to the overall, long-term enjoyment of the game?

Apr 13, 2021 16:58

Earththunder- Not my intention at all to just kill everybody and make players quit - to paraphrase you. I was just brainstorming (and yes the entire entry was a steaming-hot mess which was no help at all).

My thinking was simply this: Once a player maxes - or nearly so - the character levels, boredom will set in if the only new challenge is ever-increasing numbers of the same monsters over and over. And there are other interesting ways to add challenge besides MORE MONSTERS! And the game-makers have always built in increasing rewards for higher risk. That assumption was in place, though - you’re right - I didn’t explicitly say so.

But you don’t like my ideas. That’s cool. Throw some of you own ideas out there if you want.

Apr 13, 2021 17:19

There’s one phrase Dwarf shouts that I’ve never been able to decipher. It’s something like, “Try to run, you cage something rust bucket!!” Anyone know what he’s saying for that one?

Apr 13, 2021 18:48

@ Rowdius,

In career and campaign mode, it does add to the fun. In the tournament, not quite so much. It was a bit more frustrating than fun with a start like that on a multi-room dragon lair run. I will think about it some more, though. :-)

Apr 13, 2021 18:48

“Try to run, you cave slinking rust bucket.”

Although other interpretations are always welcome. Dwarvish translations are never precise.

Apr 14, 2021 0:24

I also proposed reduction of mages. One could count the mages as 1.5 dragons for the room filling and make 6.5 the maximum (average is 5.5). So 4 mages would be the max (without any other dragons) or 3 mages and 2 other dragons.

That said, I am not sure if that makes things always more easy on total. The good thing with dense packed mages is, that they are not elswhere. So you get a lot of “melee only” rooms. As dwarf this is bad (I would like 1 mage per room with dwarf). As elf this caster removement helps a lot. Maybe the human is also in that direction.

“Holy moly moments” make for fun if you don’t have a 7 sword that misses all time. If this comes together the “holy moly” transforms to a “holy sh..”

Suggestion:
Maybe it would be enough for the “good feeling” to swap rooms such that dragon mages are deeper in the lair. This at least introduces a new feeling of “toughness”. The holy-moly-moment in the last room with 5 mages is fine in my opinion, because you can throw all potions and scrolls in you have (with a good feeling).

Apr 14, 2021 14:08

@ Chad Icon, I should have known that you meant to add rewards for it without saying, but then I’d be assuming and we all know what that does lol.

I think adding more and more dragons to your total needs to be changed, seriously, it’s going to be impossible for anyone to ever kill 80 dragons on this game with how few items you get, how about adding another health bar to the dragons so they have 4 once you reach say 40 dragons? have it drop back down to 30 dragons with 4 health and when you reach 40 again they drop back down to 30 with 5 health and so on? That or throw in more and more items for the players because like I said, no one will ever succeed at killing 80 dragons in 1 go round, also you’ll need to eventually raise the max levels again when people start hitting it, that or give them bonus items.

Apr 14, 2021 14:13

What did the Troll say when the Sun came up?

Man, I am going to get so stoned

Apr 15, 2021 0:01

More altars Erththunder. At 40 and 60 dragons. That would be enough for me to kill 80 with a full lvl elf ;)

But indeed the principle somewhen gets impossible to continue. I like the idea a lot to make them stronger. E.g. at 40 dragons they are set back to 30 and get another hit point. At 50 they are then set back to 40 and get 5 health. Etc.

But I don’t know if this is easy to implement.

Apr 15, 2021 3:06

I am requesting/suggesting that ghosts XP value either be boosted, or value of regens be changed. Maybe 1st regen is 0.5 value; 2nd 0.25 value, then 1XP there after.

If you get stuck in a room and run out of scrolls (exp fire), fighting endless ghosts can become quite costly in life-bars… and no (additional) reward.

I understand that it’s possible to abuse. like players could purposely allow them to regen for points. But experience show such opportunities are rare (and you could also do that with magic-users’ summoning, for example).

I hate fighting ghosts, esp w/ low-lvl weapons, unless I have a cache of fire scrolls. Of course that’s the idea- I get it.

Or, at least, maybe they don’t act - attack/cast - the moment they re-appear.

*You’re supposed to be the burglar. Go burgal something! *

Apr 15, 2021 7:25

Just leave the room… honestly… I do that all day long…

Apr 15, 2021 18:12

Bare Hand: don’t they continue regenerating once you reenter? Or if, say, there are 4 ghosts left out of 8, the “room” (upon reentry) resets, so to speak, and says to itself, “There were ever only 4 ghosts in here.” If that’s the case, then yes; leaving would help! I will try it and see what happens.

I thought an 8-ghost room would always know it was, and so never bothered leaving.

Thanks for the tip!

Apr 15, 2021 18:18

It would be great fun if there was some special effects when Human shoves a fireball-holding magic user into a pit. Extra screaming, burning, explosions, that’s always welcome.

Give it to me raw and wriggling. You can keep nasty chips.

Apr 16, 2021 3:11

Idea: If a character kills a magic user while it’s prepping a fireball for launch, the magic user explodes like a fireball and the monsters adjacent to it must save against fireball. (That would include the character, which is, you know, a… um… drawback.)

There’s naught in ‘im but evil.

Apr 16, 2021 3:36

No, the room is not different if you re-enter. I just leave and let the room as it is. There is no need to kill all sorts of ghosts. Hopefully there are not ghosts everywhere. If it is just one room you can typically avoid it completely or just take what you need and leave.

Apr 16, 2021 5:54

More than once I’ve had multiple ghost rooms. but my favorite ones are right when you start with those amazing +1 gear and the 3 rooms you can access either have 10 monsters in them or are gargantuan sized…such a great way to start off, you know, like that DM you had one time and you had just spent 2 hours making your characters and the first monster you run in to is an ancient red dragon…have fun

Apr 16, 2021 13:20

If you are not in tournament you can try to swap to elf and leap to the room in the upper left corner. If you can at least clean this, you have a good circle-movement option (and maybe already better equip). Then you can attack from sneak, vanish and re-enter safely.

If that is not “cleanable”, you can still try to do circles, but must hope for some luck with sneaking in that room. If even this fails, try to first clean the mines…

I had once that mess-game where I ended up with this strategy with and sneak-failing-elf at the entrance to the ruins between a room of mummy kings, giants (backside) and the dragon lair and a 2(?)-bow… I even failed the 1-step-sneak to a chest in the dragon lair, used undo and shot a 2-close mummy king with a 12-heroic strike and got all treasures after this…

What I want to say is: This “run away” principle can lead pretty far, when dungeons are not welcoming. I am quite a chicken, especially in tournament.

P.S.
If you play that chicken game, be VERY aware of murphy’s law.

Apr 16, 2021 16:25

Bare Hand: yes, absolutely I leave if all the loot is taken up. Unless the kills are “sure” I never stay and fight just for XP any more. When you need millions of points to lvl up, three 90-point ghost are a waste if time and steel. But leaving a room uncleared is not always an option.

Rellik: Chicken’s my favorite! Elf is rarely the problem when it comes to ghosts. It’s that dang, plodding Human who can get out of his own way.

I have discovered a beautiful little … capability … human has that’s very super-power-like. But I fear sharing it b/c someone coughRowdiuscough might see a bug that needs breaking, er… fixing.

Apr 17, 2021 9:04

As long as you don’t kill 80 dragons in tournament with him, it will not be so overpowered… what could it be… can you still skewer invisible specters? SLIMES? :D But that is not a real superpower… What is the target of the superpower? If it is not dragons, I think it is not so relevant…

Apr 17, 2021 18:28

Ok, Bare Hand. Maybe I indulged in mild hyperbole. I will cryptic this: Human is not always bipedal

Apr 18, 2021 7:07

I am hoping my Dungeoneer comrades might help me understand some tidbits of strategy related to Dwarf. Dwarf gets a weighted bonus for attacking while surrounded by 3 or more enemies. There is also a bonus added on for charging. Here’s the strategical part I do not understand.

Dwarf charges into a crowd of 4, let’s say. The one charged toward is almost assuredly a hit. THAT part I get. But then Dwarf is surrounded. NO bonus on defense for the next round while every enemy in the circle - except for that one surprised ponce - gets a whack at the short-guy. Now, the NEXT turn Dwarf can Hunker, and that’s a little better (depending on shield-quality).

Why do it? (Other than, “It’s fun!” That part I understand!) In my experience, the benefit of the “sure hit” rarely outweighs having to just stand there and take 3 or 4 hits afterward. Please share your insights. Thanks!

Come, Shadowfax. Show us the meaning of speed.

Apr 18, 2021 8:17

@ChadIcon;

Human: NEVER!! I’ll never join you Dwarf: If you only knew the power of the Dwarf side Dwarf: Dwarfy Wan never told you what happened to your dwarf Human: He told me enough, he said you Dwarfed him Dwarf: No, I am your Dwarf Human: No, that’s not not true, That’s impossible! NO! NO!!

That’d be foolish to take one “guaranteed” hit and sit through 3-4 hits hoping they don’t hit you, I hate the dwarf as it is, he sucks when I play him, I’m lucky to get through the regular rooms with him, let alone the dragon rooms.

Apr 18, 2021 12:43

Charging the dwarf into a pack of 4 or 5 is usually a weak play unless you have a solid plan for the next move: Massive Hit giving you another turn, strong shields meaning you can Hunker effectively or hasting and charging again to move away while the front two are still panicked. You did miss the point that two are panicked by the charge, so don’t attack, but if they are multi-hp monsters you’ll probably take 3 hits from a pack of 5 before you can hunker if you just charge in with no plan.

Charging a (defensively) weak monster in a group is a good way of starting a feat chain if you have strong weapons. Works well in the hunt where there is a wider mix of weak and strong monsters (or, just more monsters!) Frenzy+Charge+Surprise (or Gird Loins)+good weapon vs weak monster can be a guaranteed massive hit. Remember which monsters are panicked.

If you’re not in that situation you are usually better off charging round the outside of the pack at groups of 2 where you can hit one, and panic the other one, then do something else next. Obviously you aren’t using Frenzy then.

Human vs ghosts: try to take out more than one at once. Skewer, or counterattack/allow fireball with decent shield. Try not to run around getting to the next one, giving them chance to come back. (Doorways are good, if you have to get to the other side to get the mage that’s run away.) The mages are a PITA - they enlarge ghosts, and they stay enlarged until you kill all the ghosts. Even if you kill the mage or the ghost they enlarged, when they come back they’re still big! Personally with the human I prefer the ghosts to rooms packed full of skeleton archers.

Apr 18, 2021 14:02

Good answer raand9999, in all aspects. @Earththunder, of course you should not play him like human! Hunker, Hunker, Hunker and charge the last health is his style.

However, we once had the result of a discussion that IF you have an 9 sword on adrenaline+ invisible gird-loin max-lvl-dwarf and a circle of 5 dragons, you can do that and get a massive hit. In reality you won’t do that move (becasue THAT situation is rare). It is mostly wrong and you should act like raand said or just jump in the middle and hunker.

Apr 18, 2021 14:14

By the way: I like that idea of Chadicon somehow:
“”” Idea: If a character kills a magic user while it’s prepping a fireball for launch, the magic user explodes like a fireball and the monsters adjacent to it must save against fireball. (That would include the character, which is, you know, a… um… drawback.) “”” At the point where the fizzle is not possible any more, the spell could somehow be “unleashed”. The fireball could strike on a random field or create a fire wall. The summening could be “transformed” towards a dungmonster runt or a ghost. And a size spell (well it ends with the death of the caster, so this is only relevant for multi-health-casters) could also be unleashed on a random target and shrink it.

Apr 18, 2021 14:34

Thanks, everyone. Very helpful. Earththunder got me LOL-ing so loud my wife wanted the scoop.

Raand, as usual, your analysis/strategic thinking is excellent, and I will strive to put it into practice

Rellik, I kind of like your idea. Sort of like the hit causes the magic to be unleashed before being properly channeled; the power must manifest somehow, but the outcome is unpredictable. Explosions are almost always fun (especially when scattered body parts - that are not mine - are involved), but a random outcome (with explosions in the mix) holds more interest over the long-term.

Apr 18, 2021 14:38

@Rellik I think even then we concluded it was dangerous, because to get the +2 adrenaline you only have 3 hit points vs 5 dragons and you are in trouble when the feat chain ends! But, as you say, there are exceptions. The monsters might not all be melee monsters, for example, so will be inclined to run away instead of attacking. Reading the situation is, of course, part of the game.

The magic going awry if interrupted is quite an interesting idea.

Apr 19, 2021 5:07

Idea for Elf: During feat-mode, the normal (i.e. currently-in-place) options OR the ability to leap “scroll-distance” w/o using a leap scroll. The “super-leap” would use up the Feat in one move.

Apr 19, 2021 20:39

Couple of thoughts:

Re: Changing the mechanics of the game to keep things interesting. I like the idea of having monsters that help the player. Exploding Mages could be one example. In a previous thread, I mentioned the possibility of monsters (either randomly assigned or monster types) that would not attack the player, unless attacked first. Another alternative is the monster that actually HELPS the player to kill monsters, unless attacked by the player. Figuring out which monsters in the room were friends and which were not would be part of the complexity. New and different tactics would have to be developed.

Re: Limiting the number of mages in the room. I would vote for keeping things as they are now. Mainly the issue is that the player needs to change tactics (a LOT) depending on the number of Mages, and their distribution in the room.. Keeping the Mages from repeatedly enlarging themselves (and other monsters) is a unique low-probability but high-danger situation. Spending scrolls to keep things from getting out of hand is part of the game, just like dealing with hopelessly bad weapons or an insufficient number of potions.

Re: The recent spate of players changing their names. Is there (in fact) a limit to the number of characters that are available for that purpose? And is “Homicidal” really accurate, unless Dragons are People. too?

–Just wondering

Apr 20, 2021 0:38

I have a question concerning bull-rush-into-pit-feats. If I have a chance for a massive hit (e.g. because of press, full swing etc.) are these also included in the bull-rush-into-pit to create a feat or do I just have the feat chance of 1/12 when pushing a monster into a pit?

Apr 20, 2021 6:16

THAT is why I LIKE to play bare hands: Blue dragons in campaign (6). Last dragon, last hit point for both of us and a coin flip decision on the last haste scroll (all other scrolls also used up). It is only 6 dragons but ALWAYS feels like die hard.

Apr 20, 2021 9:45

Bare Hand, please share the secret of how you get to the dragons’ lair w/ only starting weapons? Is there an option for not taking treasure now that I don’t know about?

Apr 20, 2021 10:58

Hi, Chad.

There is always an option to not kill everything in the room, right? Additionally, with only 6 dragons (and therefore only one lair room) it would not matter whether the lair room contained a weapon chest, or not.

BTW, is this a reference to the line in the original (text) version of Adventure, wherein the question that the program asks is “With what? Your bare hands?”–and the only answer that the program accepts is “Yes”?

Apr 20, 2021 12:14

You could say Yes???

Someone get me a time machine.

Apr 20, 2021 12:27

@Bare Hand - even with the weapons, playing Basic is like that for me at 10 dragons, maybe 15 if I get lucky! And OMG you’ve got 6 dragons with +1 weapons 4 times in a row already!

I’ve always reckoned that there is no chance of Massive Hit if you push a monster into a pit, as it’s rather unheroic (and the dice don’t roll). Certainly I’ve never got a feat from it.

@Chad Icon - collect the stuff you need without killing all the monsters in the room (difficult). Then you don’t have to take the weapons. I suspect that, since it’s difficult to collect specific stuff, Bare Hand collects just exactly what he needs to beat the dragons and nothing more. And if he underestimates, or it goes a bit wrong, he goes back and gets some more. Oh and yes it’s hard to get through the mines with +1 weapons too.

@beetletoe - even with 10 dragons (Bare Hand’s best, I believe!), if you play Basic there is no Golden Chest and no Mithril, so only one weapon chest between the two rooms. Just play that room last.

There are some monsters which might help the player already - cavern crawlers, purple worms, shamblers, gas spores, the reaper and even mages’ fireballs can be helpful to the player, although also not helpful if you’re in the wrong place! Having something that is not a foe until attacked would be an interesting addition but might need a new algorithm for movement.

Apr 20, 2021 12:48

@Rowdius - The keys to the time machine are here or you could look on Google Play!!

Hooray for open source :-)

Apr 20, 2021 15:23

Unfortunately, lacking a time machine, the best that I can do is a link and a quotation from the link. It does agree with what I remember:

medium.com/@aareed/killing-the-dragon-in-adventure-14c4c4edb130

Shortly after the snake we come to the dragon, described with almost identical language and a mechanically similar obstacle: it seems to block access to more of the cave, you can’t just slip past it, and attempts to kill it through conventional means are fruitless: “THE AXE BOUNCES HARMLESSLY OFF THE DRAGON’S THICK SCALES.”

And so we come to the moment, which is this: >KILL DRAGON WITH WHAT? YOUR BARE HANDS? >YES CONGRATULATIONS! YOU HAVE JUST VANQUISHED A DRAGON WITH YOUR BARE HANDS! (UNBELIEVABLE, ISN’T IT?)

Apr 20, 2021 15:29

Just to be clear, the Dragon is the ONLY thing that you can kill with your bare hands. How you get through the rest of the dungeon is anybody’s guess.

Apr 20, 2021 21:25

Thanks, Raand. I must confess that I never actually played Adventure, or at least not much of it. I started with Zork. I will use the time machine and do what I should have done a long time ago.

Apr 21, 2021 2:01

Sry I didn’t know that! That game is a bit older than me. However, I like that spirit. Of course I also have to let some monsters alive. You can see this in this screenshot-compilation I made earlier. It is hard work to not take weapons. I must admit, that I finished the 6 green dragons with a +3 shield that I got because the worm killed the last monster in the mines. I thought “+3 shield is bare hand enough”. I didn’t want to restart the campaign at that point because of this silly shield (that is not enough to block a dragon).

What I can propose is a “die hard” campaign-mode. With no weapons anywhere, but +n weapons from the start with n=min(9,number of lair rooms). I think it is possible to win as advanced dungeoneer.

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