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Player feedback from March 2021
Dungeoneers
Mar 1, 2021 15:32

This topic contains player feedback for this month that the player approved for the forum.

Mar 1, 2021 15:32

The Hunt against the Beetles was not as easy as it first seemed!

Mar 1, 2021 17:46

Indeed it was not! Such lovely, cool and impressive new backgrounds to flee from, though! Kudos to your artist!

Mar 1, 2021 17:56

Glad you like the new art. Most of the other regions, as you’ll see, have even more variety than the Enchanted Forest.

Mar 2, 2021 11:47

It took me quite a long time to work out that today’s hunt is also Beetles, and that my browser had indeed updated and not shown me an old cached page :-)

Mar 2, 2021 13:55

Thanks for mentioning the beetles. It was a bug that might have taken a long time to find otherwise.

Mar 4, 2021 0:23

My hunt starts bad today. Am I too early?
Dungeon Room 500
You have entered a room that is in very bad condition indeed.
It doesn’t have an entrance, so we have no idea how you got in.
Please teleport out at the first opportunity.

Mar 4, 2021 1:34

It would be good to provide an “abort” button within this error screen that would allow to retry/rebuild the current game.

Mar 4, 2021 1:40

Same problem here in my third hunt room. I would not suggest to start hunts now or is anyone playing through?

Mar 4, 2021 2:25

Yep. Must have stumbled on an invisible teleport to have reached room 500. And to think I was in the wheat fields blowing up gas spores. Can’t abort the unlucky hunt. By the way, teleports would be a nice addition to some dungeons. Perhaps a square (well, a hexagon) that teleports whoever enters it into another, random square. Maybe make them single use so no place can be inaccessible. Or perhaps a new rare scroll, teleport?

Mar 4, 2021 2:45

I think I’m in Tartarus! Cannot continue the Hunt; cannot escape the hunt. Mommy!!

Mar 4, 2021 4:02

As long as you cannot play I recommend this video to think about ;) https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7x7x65
It is just three dragons, but I carefull “planned” the dragon moves after wake up. It shows nicely why she is strong if you play her carefully in combination with fire.

Mar 4, 2021 4:10

Dungeon Room 500 You have entered a room that is in very bad condition indeed.

It doesn’t have an entrance, so we have no idea how you got in.

Please teleport out at the first opportunity.

My daily hunt is not gong so well :(

Mar 4, 2021 4:36

Dungeon room 500 for me as well with the gas spores.

The problem is that I cannot go back and change game mode afterwards. I am stuck in daily hunt mode.

I know that career mode works because I have entered as a guest and it works. Sucks that you cannot leave daily hunt mode and thus cannot play at all with my profile

Mar 4, 2021 8:24

Also in Dungeon room 500.

Mar 4, 2021 8:33

Hunts should be working now. The wheatfields had a bad configuration.

Mar 4, 2021 11:40

THanks. it is working :)

Mar 6, 2021 4:52

Masterleep & Rowdius: Here’s an idea that came to me that would create a bonus that involves both chance (on the die) and player agency. Are you familiar w/ the concept of “flow” (look it up; it’s a real thing)? The concept is sort of a task-oriented euphoria where a person’s doing something they are good at, the task is going well, but they are also feeling challenged or stretched by that same task (I give that info to sort-of help frame the idea).

Call it “flow” or “momentum” maybe. Example: Character rolls - including bonuses - a score =or> +1 for each skill in succession (i.e. Human, rolls a 13 sword, THEN an 11 shield, THEN an 11 bow), the FLOW kicks in.

Character’s next action is free AS LONG AS they remain in FLOW. The bonus is the free action. So if Human entered FLOW on a shield roll; to maintain FLOW, his next action must be either SWORD or BOW, and the die-roll must be either 13 (if sword), or 11 (if bow). If he chooses BOW and rolls 11 or higher, then for a chance to stay in FLOW, the next action MUST be SWORD 13 or higher; then to maintain FLOW, his next action must be either SHIELD or BOW… and so on. Does that explanation make sense?

It’s a feeling sort of like when you get multiple feats in a row, but it’s less powerful (as far as bonuses go) and it’s not as chained to chance.

I just chose the skill-die plus 1 as an example to represent the being-challenged part of experiencing flow, not that it must be the actual criteria. I mean, I’m just using those figures to create the example; it could be anything.

Flow describes an extremely satisfying experience that can be self-perpetuating. Certainly an admirable goal for any game designer who wants people to play their game a lot.

(sorry if constantly posting ideas is annoying; it’s just how my mind works. I should change my screenname to BrainStorm, lol)

Mar 6, 2021 14:08

It makes me think of a 4th character. Someone who has to defend in the one turn and attack in the next and so on.

Mar 6, 2021 18:35

Flow feels like a good elf thing to me. What if it worked like this:

Each time she hits, she gets a +1 flow bonus to her next attack with the same weapon. She keeps her flow bonus until she either misses or uses a different weapon or leaves the room. Flow stacks with each hit, but is capped at something like +3.

If she ends up with a good flow bonus, she might want to change her tactics to stick with whatever weapon she is using. And there would be incentive to plan a room out in advance with flow in mind - will she do a series of leap attacks, or instead take a defensive position for a series of bow shots?

There is room for another elf skill because we could make Flaming Arrow an unlock instead of a skill.

I’ve always been hesitant about mechanisms like this that amplify your good luck. Players are already inclined to think that the game is too luck based (things like Rage and Trinkets, which reduce the effect of bad luck, have been great in reducing that sentiment). But if it’s a skill for one of the advanced heroes, then I’d feel better about it.

Mar 7, 2021 4:37

Not sure about the “flow”, but the elf definitely needs to be stronger. Now she’s mostly a light-footed scout and occasional sniper, useful to pinch that mithril vest or loot a golden chest but too fragile to survive against dragons or even lesser critters. 2 things that come to mind are 3rd hit point for the elf, maybe make it an unlock after some levels, experience and hard adventuring can make anyone more hardy. Another thing is something like the cleave but with arrows, maybe the elf grabs two arrows and does double damage?

Mar 7, 2021 4:56

I very much like the flow idea (or some variant) for elf! It could be a big help in tough situations, but requires careful planning to really gain something from it. I agree that it may need careful thought to try to nudge it towards “Interesting skill that’s fun, and impacts room planning in fun ways” from simple “good luck amplification”. I feel like the suggested mechanic (based on consecutive hits with same weapon) could do that pretty well. Also, as bad luck (miss) “breaks the flow”, it’s also an opportunity to switch strategies with no FOMO (fear of missing out) from breaking the flow manually. I feel like that opportunity could soften the emotional blow of a miss breaking the flow.

Mar 7, 2021 4:58

I would be interested in seeing how it works, if it’s not a big hassle to implement on your end. The FLOW of having good success with a single attack follows the same idea, but is easier to describe to newbies.

I confess, part of the reason I exampled one of each weapon before repeating one was to make it harder to do (keeping w/ FLOW concept) while also making it more appealing to you, as in, “Oh, we can’t do that. It’s too easy to make a character too powerful.”

If I’m understanding you correctly, your proposing a bonus to the skill actually used. So, a successful sword attack (starting with the second one?) begins stacking the bonus - up to +3 - as long as she keeps using her sword and keeps making hits, correct? If so, that’s a cool idea, because hers (and everyone’s) FOCUS bonus drops back to zero once a successful hit is achieved.

For the elf, what’s super appealing to me is the FLOW bonus accumulating to successive SHEILD use! It would be wonderful compensation for her defensive weaknesses, assuming she still gets her counter attack. Otherwise there’s no point b/c she’d just stand there deflecting hits with ever-increasing aplomb.

And working to plot out consecutive leap attacks - as you say, requiring skill rather than luck - Whoa, dude, I say DO IT!

You may have to adjust some things if it turns out she becomes too powerful too easily, but the awesomeness potential ROCKS!!

Mar 7, 2021 5:09

And that’s one of the reasons I so enjoyed playing the original elf more often. One had to use patience and strategy to make her successful. Some players really enjoy that element.

Others prefer that in-your-face, toe-to-toe, “Let’s throw, bro,” kind of hack-n-slay play. And I do sometimes too. But this has the potential to bring the elf back to - or possibly exceed - her former glory!

Mar 7, 2021 9:19

So, let me get this straight. You want to make the Human stronger when he misses. You want to make the Dwarf stronger when he spends a turn doing nothing. And now you want to make the Elf stronger when she hits?

My feeling is that there is already too much luck in the game. Lately, I have been finding myself in an uncomfortably large number of games where killing all of the Dragons seems to require getting very good weapons AND getting lots of potions and scrolls AND clearing several of the rooms without spending scrolls, via chain feats or especially fortuitous pit locations.

Additionally, in competitive games, such as the Tournament, it is/was very unusual to see leaders that finished the game with below-average weapons.

How to address this? Not long ago, ideas were being floated about making all of the weapons +8 or sum to 24. While that approach might be better/fairer than the situation now, I am wondering if the right balance might be struck by standardizing the totals, so that players who had poor weapons available would be compensated by getting more scrolls and potions.

On average, how many used-up scrolls and potions (of various sorts) were worth an extra point on a weapon, given the player level? I don’t know, but the programmers who have access to the database of player results can certainly calculate those values. (Is that already being done?) Dungeon layouts that were based on those equivalent-values calculations would have the virtue of being fairer, while still providing enough variability so as not to seem boring, I think.

Mar 7, 2021 14:20

I don’t know, Beetletoe. I don’t see it that way. My understanding is that they want to get to the point where you can win using any character, but you would have to play them VERY differently to do so.

To make it to the dragon hoard guarded by a hoard of dragons? Of course one needs the best and most. Logic dictates that if you want to get to the end w/ lots of potions/scrolls, one must play a very different game; and I find myself doing that very thing in the tournaments as opposed to the other modes.

SHOULD a character be able to beat a hoard of dragons with only a +6 shield? The dwarf MIGHT pull it off b/c he has the best defense die, but his shtick is dependent on being able to shrug off attacks, not avoid them. Elf might pull it off if there were ample pits and only 2 or 3 dragons in the room. but 5? no way.

The human’s shtick seems mainly about doing lots of damage fast and is most effective one-on-on. The hoard of dragons guarding a dragon hoard model - by its very nature - will favor the dwarf b/c it’s very difficult to maneuver the two to where their strengths are maximized; the battlefield is so crowded that they are forced to fight like a dwarf

Mar 7, 2021 19:18

Hi, Chad.

My question is not whether you can beat the Dragons using a +6 shield. My question is whether you can beat my score when I randomly received a +9 shield.

Or whether I can beat your score when you were the one that got the +9 shield, and I didn’t.

So, my concern is that when luck plays too big a role in determining the outcome, then we might as well just flip a coin to see who wins, instead of going to the trouble of killing as many Dragons as we can before we inevitably face a greater number of Dragons than we can possibly handle.

In the best of all possible worlds, you and I would both face the same exact layout–except that whoever went second would have a clear advantage. As the best alternative, it could help if steps were taken to try to equalize the difficulty of the (randomly different) layouts that we each encountered.

–My two cents.

Mar 7, 2021 21:46

IMHO a newbie with a +9 shield will still not beat an experienced player with a +6 shield, even playing the same level hero. To rank in the tournament you have to have some luck (like +9 weapons, or good potions) and play really well.

Kudos to weirlooking for knocking out 40(44) dragons in the tournament with only a level 14 dwarf!

Mar 8, 2021 3:07

Still, Beetletoe, I respectfully disagree. If all the outcomes were equalized, (though still - somehow - randomized?) players like Weirlooking, with a lvl 14 dwarf would complain that only people with lvl 21 elves are winning all the time. And, good sir, you win A LOT; I look at the stats.

I have never even ONCE come in first at the tournament. Yet I still participate every week, and I still find it great fun.

The game developers are rightly focusing on equality of opportunity, rather than equality of outcome. They must; how can they POSSIBLY know how skillful a strategist a given player is, relative to the layout, enemies present, and available equipment?

But we all face the same ODDS.

Sometimes Fate hands you ultimate power, and you wade through the dragon hoards like a scythe through autumn wheat. Sometimes Fate is more fickle; you improvise, sweat, and grit your teeth every time a breath-weapon roars toward you…. A victory pulled from the jaws of such anxiety is that much sweeter. This, not surety, is what keeps the game interesting.

I DO think that once we’re fighting more than 15 or 20 dragons, the weapon they guard should always be a +8 or +9. It is dragon treasure, after all. What self-respecting dragon would hoard a freaking +7 sword?

And yes, kudos to Weirlooking on the dwarf’s victory. And kudos to you, raand9999 (I think it was you), for snatching away my 40+ victory two weeks ago, during the tournament’s final moments!

Mar 8, 2021 5:33

It is possible to kill 60 red dragons with a 7 drop (with some luck).
Back to the flow : I like the idea, that human has rage, dwarf has gird loins and elf has flow.

However, it should indeed decrease and not increase the luck-dependency. If a hit increases the flow, it is a multiplier of the luck-dependency. It might be better to implement it as a kind of focus that does not depent on the target, but on the weapon usage. However, to make it more “tactical” one might add some interesting dependencies. Flow may start only under certain conditions and may vanish when moving (without attack, so leap-attack flows are possible), when casting sneak, bolts, fire or when being hit.
I also like the dodge-flow idea. E.g. flow also adds 10% to dodge chance per flow-point.

Mar 8, 2021 8:47

So, to be clear, what I am proposing is not to eliminate the role of good luck in determining the outcome, but rather to make sure that bad luck in weapons drop, alone, is not enough to sink one’s chances.

I think back to Player Feedback over the last year or so, and repeatedly seeing a message that said: I only received X weapons and Y potions; This is ridiculous; Resign!

The players who said that were clearly frustrated and not having fun. So, what I am proposing is to make sure that NO well-played game is worth quitting early.

If I get bad weapons in the early-to-mid game, then I can rely on the fact that I am either scheduled to receive BETTER weapons in the Lair than I already have, or an above-average number of scrolls and potions. I want the weapons result and the scroll probabilities to be negatively correlated with one another, when the Dungeon is generated. I want players with bad weapons to have an incentive (better than now) to continue a game, and play through to the end, rather than resigning.

This does not eliminate the role of luck, but rather, tempers it. As an Elf, good luck happens when I get lots of Leap scrolls to go with my +9 sword and +7 bow, or lots of Fire scrolls to go with my +9 bow and +7 sword. Poor luck happens when the wrong sorts of scrolls are paired with the weapons that I have. But the important key is that I will not know which I am getting until late in the game.

At least, I am far less likely (than now) to declare, “This is hopeless! I resign!”

Mar 8, 2021 9:00

7 mummy mages in one room? Seriously?

Mar 8, 2021 10:07

Rellik - Thanks for the nudge to reduce the luck amplification. But flow ending when you get hit is also a multiplier of luck (bad luck in this case). And I wouldn’t want movement or scroll use to end flow because it would reduce so many interesting choices.

How about this:

Using a weapon adds +1 to the flow for that weapon, whether or not you hit. Flow bonus is capped based on the skill level, like +3/+4/+5. You lose flow for a weapon if you use a different weapon or you are attacked.

The above makes flow more predictable (although I have mixed feelings about whether that’s a good thing), and it rewards the preferred elf behavior of not letting anything attack her.

Alternative A: you don’t lose flow from switching weapons, only by being attacked. So you could maintain a flow bonus for your sword as well as one for your bow, as long as you are managing to stay way from attackers. (There’s still the luck amplification of missing a would-be attacker, but there’s only so much we can do.)

Alternative B: you only gain +1 flow when you hit, but missing doesn’t end flow.

Mar 8, 2021 10:59

Hi, Rowdius.

I like the option where using the same weapon again increases flow. Does this include the case where you are defending, and counterattack with a particular weapon?

Does flow start when you attack with the same weapon that you last counterattacked with?

And how is flow calculated when you attack two or more enemies at the same time–either side-by-side or one after the other?

Mar 8, 2021 11:30

Rowdius is right with “hit” is a bad end, so being attacked is perfect as an end of flow. It also fits perfectly to the elf. However, it seems to be hard to do that “strategically” with the sword. There is always a hit-back-chance. What about making 2 different flows or do I think to complicated again? A bow flow and a sword flow.
Flow I) Bow Flow: For each successive bow attack, gain +1 on bow attacks. Being attacked or using a different weapon ends the flow.
Flow II) Sword Flow: For each successive sword attack, gain +1 on sword attacks. Being attacked using a different weapon ends the flow.
Flow III) Beeing attacked by melee does not end the sword flow.

Just for fun I made up this alternative:
Flow I) Flow: For each successive attack with the same sweapon, gain +1 for attacks with this weapon. Being attacked or using a different weapon ends the flow.
Flow II) Overflow: A leap attack does not end the bow-flow.
Flow III) Stack Overflow: A leap attack gets the bow-flow bonus and increases it further.

Mar 8, 2021 11:33

Apologies to both Chad Icon and Weirlooking for pipping you at the post in the last two tournaments. You both put up really great scores. Those are my best scores ever and the only two times I have ever won the tournament. I absolutely had to play as well as possible and have good fortune to get that kind of score.

Mar 8, 2021 11:46

I think the huntress definitely needs something to match the swordsman’s Rage and the dwarf’s Gird Loins. Those do both make a considerable difference to their capability. Flow sounds like it could provide that while still being different from the other two, so I think it’s definitely worth a go.

Mar 8, 2021 14:19

Ladies and Gentlemen;

I have a strange question regarding the “Reaper” If the reaper is SO Deadly that when it hits you it takes away all of your health points, i.e. Two or Three, depending on which character you are playing.
Then Why is the Reaper Not worth more Experience Points? It seems to me that the Reaper Should be worth as the very least as much a a Dragon.

Mar 8, 2021 14:59

Raand9999, you don’t need to apologize! I thought it might finally be my moment, but the contest’s not over till the last dragon screams. Congratulations!

Rowdius, I was envisioning flow differently. But however you implement it will be interesting.

I thought you meant - referring to consecutive use of single skill - that (I’m just choosing one for example) every additional time elf does a leap attack, flow bonus accrues. But do something ELSE and flow is broken. It doesn’t matter if she hits, misses, gets hit, etc. HOWEVER, if she defends (as in “click on space where she is to brace for attack”), fires bow, makes a std attack, flow ends.

So moving isn’t a skill, so she could move away, or even leap away (in this example), and still maintain flow.

Alternately, you could say that the leap attack is just a riff on a std sword strike. My point is, to achieve more than two in a row would require planning- i.e. skill, not luck. Especially if flow works whether hit, miss, or get hit.

Same would be true for defend (as in “click on space where she is to brace for attack”). It doesn’t matter if “dodge” kicks in or not - which would be luck - as long as she doesn’t fire the bow, initiate a sword attack, commit a leap attack, etc.

Am I creating a clear description of how the concept works? If not, writing out another example won’t help.

Now implementing that from the programming side… I have no idea if it’s doable

Mar 8, 2021 15:14

@Dread Stalker - I never really thought about the XP before but 50XP does seem rather low for the Reaper. I’m not convinced it’s worth as much as a Dragon but it does need immediate consideration and careful play to send it safely back to the underworld. The Mummy King is worth (9+4)23=78XP. The Reaper has more attack and defence than that. The Lich Queen is worth (11+6)23=102XP. Spectres are only worth 54XP but there are two of them. I would say that the Reaper is at least on a par with those monsters, if not more dangerous, so to me it would seem worth maybe 100-150XP. Alternatively, reckoning its attack at 21 (enough to always defeat a +9 shield) and as a Boss monster since it too has special powers, that would be (21+6)23 =162XP.

You could probably make a case for more. Or for dragons being slightly less: (13+10)33=207.

Mar 8, 2021 15:17

(Markdown changed my asterisks into italics! eg (9+4)x2x3=78XP)

Mar 8, 2021 16:44

Re: Reaper

At least for the Elf, the Reaper is way easier to deal with than either the King, the Queen, or the Specter. Sometimes inconvenient, and a minor annoyance, and sometimes helpful. If you play your cards right, you can often cause the Reaper to instantly kill the room’s occupants as it tries to get to you.

If the Reaper is too close to you, you can usually leave the room, go to a new room, and kill something there, to cause the Reaper to shift rooms. Maybe it is easier to get a free shot at the Reaper in the second room. Maybe the intention was simply to get it out of the way in the first room. Maybe when it returns to the first room, it will show up in a spot that is easier to deal with than before. If not, kill something in the second room again, and try again.

When have you ever seen the King, the Queen, or the Specters be anywhere near that cooperative?

Although the Dwarf and Human are less mobile than the Elf, there will often be opportunities to do something similar to deal with the Reaper. And if not, you can occasionally sacrifice a scroll to get out of trouble.

Based on that, what should the Reaper be worth? Well, perhaps as much as a Slime, which ALSO may occasionally force you to spend a scroll to stay out of trouble, but never helps you by wiping out troublesome enemies for you.

Trouble is, unlike the Reaper, you have no real choice about having to confront the King, the Queen, and the Specters; and (at least for the Elf) it usually (almost every time) costs at least a couple of scrolls to navigate each of their rooms, without being damaged. Compared to my friend, the Reaper, it is almost no contest.

Mar 8, 2021 16:57

Come to think of it, any chance of adding a Scroll of Summon Reaper, or Mithril-like object that has a similar effect?

Mar 8, 2021 23:04

Maybe if you parry, dodge or “resist” it, it becomes your slave :D
However, I once had the situation with an adrenaline dwarf, that there was no scroll use possible when it appeared next to me. I only got out by a very lucky 10 attack-roll.
Also a scroll use IS much harder than the other boss monsters. Typically I don’t use scrolls there. Maybe that is a mistake, because tyically I get one damage of at least one of those, but I typically I take the risk. Maybe it is easier to compare with ettins to see if it is fair.

Mar 9, 2021 4:03

Now 3 specters in one hunt room? Seriously?

Mar 9, 2021 15:12

I’m imagining playing with the Flow rule, I’m not liking the idea that you lose flow when you attack with a different weapon. If you generate sword flow by leaping over and killing a target, leaving you not next to any monster, it won’t be fun to lose your sword flow just because you then, correctly, switch to your bow. So I’m thinking the only way you lose flow is to be attacked or leave the room.

Regarding Bare Hand’s point that melee attacks will always have the chance of ending flow (if you miss and get attacked back), I’m feeling like that’s okay. There has to be some luck involved. And this flow mechanic will happen a lot during a game, so the luck should balance out.

(To answer beetletoe’s questions … counterattacks would count towards, and if there are multiple leap attacks, each one would count towards flow.)

Mar 9, 2021 15:24

Another elf question:

Now that it’s been a while, how do you feel about how Dodge and Evade work?

We are considering changing the Dodge ability and the Evade skill (renaming it Retaliate).

Something like this:

Dodge: X% chance to avoid any hit (2X% v. missile and breath)

Retaliate I: When guarding, counterattack with sword or bow, even against hits.
Retaliate II: Counterattacks are +1
Retaliate III: Counterattacks are +2

What do you think?

Mar 9, 2021 20:36

Hi, Rowdius.

If I am interpreting your proposal correctly, it would weaken the Elf significantly.

Currently, the Evade skill does a good job of helping the Elf to avoid injury, by choosing to assume a defensive stance. It works particularly well in crowded rooms, where some melee attacks are unavoidable, and in Dragon rooms, where both air and land attacks are happening at the same time.

Given that the Elf has too few hit points, and rolls the smallest die on defense, the biggest problem that the Elf has is survival. The solution, in many instances, is for the Elf to be very selective in choosing her battles, risking injury only against enemies (such as Dragons) that absolutely need to be killed to win the game.

From the sound of it, Retaliate would make the Elf better at (counter)attacking, but worse at defending whenever the Elf would have preferred to assume a defensive stance, had that been available. So, the proposed Elf is going to die sooner, while automatically taking down numerous enemies, including ones that did not need to be killed.

The proposed Elf would become more like the Human, with a stronger offense, but weaker defense (say, compared to the Dwarf). Did I mention that, for that reason, I find the Human to be unplayable.

In recent weeks, the New Elf (as she first emerged from her cocoon) was very much weaker than the Dwarf, and not competitive. Then you made some changes that included better Dodge behavior, along with better offense (higher-probability long-range attacks). And the advantage of high-level Dwarves was slightly reduced. With those changes in place, I no longer feel as if my Elf is completely outgunned by high-level Dwarves. For the most part, I can keep up, but ONLY by fighting as little as possible. (Trying to play the Elf as a fighter is clearly a losing strategy.)

Now, you are asking about changes that would shift the Elf in the direction of being a better fighter, but worse defender–but still a far worse fighter than the Dwarf, and clearly weaker than the Human. We are not optimistic about such changes.

For my part, I am looking forward to seeing how the current version of the Elf will play once I can the the Elf ranked up so that Long Shot III becomes active. My concern is that, by the time that the rank is high enough, the current Elf will have become something completely different than she is now.

So, I have to ask (once again) what problem are your proposed changes trying to solve?

Mar 10, 2021 1:30

Re: Reaper

Yes I agree that the Reaper is comparatively easy for the elf to fight. The extra movement means she can simply move away, directing the reaper towards other monsters. Not so easy for the swordsman or the dwarf to move away, so they need a sure path back to the doorway for a risk free escape without scrolls, and only get a maximum of a couple of shots at the Reaper before having to leave. For me, playing the human or the dwarf, the reaper is certainly much more disruptive than the spectres (which are particularly hard for the elf) and I think the other boss monsters too.

Mar 10, 2021 3:20

I agree w/ beetletoe, re: the proposed elf changes, if his interpretation is correct. I can also say, categorically that anything that weakens the elf’s defenses, period, I would vote against. Question: in a hypothetical situation where the elf is surrounded by monsters; using defense, if she counterstrikes against a missile monster (using an arrow) then is attacked by a melee monster - still within the one defensive “click” - is the shield then subtracted from her auto-defense roll?

Now, the idea of a counter attack, regardless of her being hit or not, that might be cool (a always say might, b/c you never know until it’s played out in the dungeon).

Another Idea I had for elf is similar to “gird”, I’d call it “aim”; to be still for one or more turns w/ her bow drawn, thereby getting bonuses for careful aim. Harder to pull off b/c you need at least one additional hex than for gird, but it fits the character.

Mar 10, 2021 9:35

The change to Dodge/Evade would make her stronger, not weaker. But I intentionally left the Dodge percentages blank to avoid such discussion.

The problems the changes address are:

A) People didn’t like how the last change to Dodge ability removed dodge possibility against melee attacks (when not Evading). Have you grown to like that approach? Personally, I like that she is weak defensively in melee, but I think it would be nice to have an occasional melee dodge that you weren’t expecting.

B) The current Evade skill includes a hodgepodge of concepts. And the result is an option which is basically an elven version of hunker. (Maybe that’s okay, that’s why I’m asking.) Another issue that has been raised is that the elf’s evade is too all or nothing - either you are missed and get a counterattack, or you are hit and get nothing.

We could do A (the dodge change) without changing Evade to Retaliate. (Evade II/III would be formulated like +X% to dodge).

The change of Evade to Retaliate is mostly stylistic. Generally, the elf uses evade if she doesn’t have room to work (that’s another thing I don’t like about the current evade - it’s backwards because you are “evading” when you don’t have room to maneuver). If she’s evading because she’s trapped, then the hope is to kill stuff to make more room. Changing Evade to Retaliate means that she’d have a bit more chance of being hit, but she’d be guaranteed the counterattacks needed to get out of the bad situation and go back to more elf-like maneuvering.

Conceptually, the current Evade approach implies that the elf can actually be defensive against melee attacks if she puts her mind to it. Whereas the proposed Retaliate approach acknowledges that she has no good melee defense, and when surrounded, her best defense is to be as aggressive as possible to get out of that situation. I don’t know which of those concepts I prefer.

As always, I’d like to know which approach you think will feel and play better, independent of whether it makes the hero stronger or weaker.

[Evade and Retaliate might not be the best words. Other ideas are: “Crouch”, “Spin”, “Whirl”, “Spring”, “Reprisal”, “Fortify”, “Brace”, “Buttress”. ]

Mar 10, 2021 17:49

Compared to your description of the change, I like the current way better. Being surrounded to such a degree is extremely rare for anyone familiar w/ playing the elf. I would rather leap out of a cluster, hoping for confusion, or maybe a hit or two, rather than bracing (while being easier to hit) and taking a handful of hits, even if I get to hit back. I don’t feel like it would improve the enjoyment of playing that character.

With elf, it’s always about patience, positioning and attacking when her chance being struck at is lowest.

How about the idea of “aiming”? Sort of like hunker, but she’d need at least one more space than the dwarf to hold her bow drawn to get a bonus that increases the longer she takes to “aim”.

Mar 10, 2021 18:08

Rowdius, I think you are on something, with this “help to free the elf”, but there are very different solutions, that I would prefer than a stronger counterattack, because counterattacks have “unspecific targets”:
Crowded rooms: It like the idea of using scrolls in crowded rooms (where else?):
In principle it is possible to “hunker down” somewhere and then use sneak scrolls, jump, haste etc. to build a new line of defense behind a firewall at another place. The problem is:
it often takes too long for the dragons to rearrange and the elf is with 2 hits already worse than the dwarf in the same room (roughly spoken).
However, I prefer this compared to “just hunker down and kill something”, because it involves some strategic thinking (I know, I once complained about exactly that: the elf takes longest to play, because this thinking takes so much time). This has the right (in my opinion) to be the “strongest of all” strategy, because it is so hard to learn and master.

In that case, it is more relevant to have defense than attack. So it would tremendously strenghten her, if we could get some crowd-defense. Something like:
- A dodge flow (each defense increases the dodge rate by 10% as long as we do not attack - up to 70%).
- Or that the elf is able to “hide” behind dragons (Breath attacks over other dragons could miss a lot.)
- Another option would be a small additional chance (10%) to “dodge into sneak”.

Additionally I once suggested to make sneak happen, when all monsters are stunned at the same time.

Another aspect is a serious of bad rolls: Typically that makes the elf stuck in a very uncomfortable position (like before). A pinning/ stun chance of the bow target might help a little. If you want to go the “preventing way”.

But my MAIN CONCERN is, that she always needs so many scrolls against dragons. There is no good way killing more than 50. Typically I run out of scrolls (not lifes) round 40 dragons. Here the dodge into sneak might help the most, because sneak scrolls are rare and this could be used for tactical rearranges instead of leaps and hastes in the case of “crowded-repositioning”. That fits best to “free the elf” in my opinion and from time to time might help against nasty single survivors.

Finally: Weak melee is OK, if she is strong enough nevertheless ;)

Mar 10, 2021 22:02

Add me to the list of folks who like the fact that the Elf’s defense is a deliberate choice, like hunker.

Improving the dodge chance, without changing Evade sounds good.

The Elf does not actually get “trapped” very often, except deliberately. When it happens accidentally, that is usually because the Elf was sneaking, on her way to her chosen hexagon in the room before revealing herself, and was spotted too soon. Or the first few enemies that she attacked did not cooperate by dying on schedule. I suppose that those situations are what scrolls are for.

I agree with Rellik that the scrolls tend to run out after around 40 dragons; and that once they are gone, the Elf starts to take damage at a high rate. And around 50 is the practical limit.

If you let the Elf do more damage, somehow, in melee, then predictably, the 40/50 limits will rise to become some larger numbers, but the ceiling will not disappear.

What would help that situation? One of the strengths of the Dwarf is that during charge attacks, certain neighbors are RELIABLY stunned, and will not attack for a turn. In contrast, the Elf’s leap attack is unpredictable; enemies are often NOT panicked, and counterattack. More predictable results would be one way to make the Elf stronger.

I like Rellik’s idea of having Dragons in the front row block breath attacks by Dragons in the back row (or tend to block them). That would be an interesting development for all three characters.

Idle thought: Would the Dragons continue to move as they do not (and suffer a decreased hit probability at a distance, when blocked), or would Dragons be smart enough to realize the problem, and shift their positions, aiming for an unobstructed shot?

Mar 11, 2021 1:05

Chad Icon - Aim is a good idea, but we already have something like it with Focus, and even more so if we add Flow.

Rellik -

I’m having trouble imagining how Dodge Flow would work. When you say “as long as we don’t attack”, I assume you mean that counterattacks are okay. So basically, you get a bonus for Evading multiple times in a row? How would it end, since the plan for Flow is to end when you are attacked.

And I’m open to ways the elf might go back into stealth, if we can think of something that’s balanced. All the monsters being panicked is a good idea, but if there only a couple panicked monsters in the room, it’s not the best time to get that cool benefit. How about if after the monsters turn, there is no monster within 2 of the elf, she goes into stealth? Or if after being the target of a fireball, there are no adjacent monsters, she goes into stealth?

I’m glad people like the way Evade works now. Maybe we’ll just leave it alone. The Retaliate idea was in fact an attempt to give the elf a way to damage dragons without being completely scroll dependent, but I get that killing stuff with counterattacks is not as satisfying or strategic - so I’ve been talked out of the idea.

But what do you think of this? It’s a little wild, and not exactly strategic, but might be fun, and it’s the complete opposite direction as Retaliate (more defensive), and would be a way to “free the elf”:

Not sure of the details, but the basic idea is that when you Evade, you would have a high chance to avoid hits by automatically moving/leaping to a random open tile within 2. It could happen multiple times during the monster’s turn, causing you to bounce around – hopefully ending up somewhere good.

Mar 11, 2021 3:13

Rowdius, your right about “aim” and I was thinking “instead of” related to the other updates you’re working to implement, so… extraneous, sorry.

Rellik, you do some great analysis! And I was thinking the same thing, with “flow” bosting elf’s defense. Maybe it’s the only flow that falls apart if she does more than move one hex at a time. “Defense is her weakness, and takes all her concentration.” Justify it narratively however you please. So, except for the auto-counterattack, if she does anything else - leap, initiate attack, bow, scroll, even potion, defensive flow falls apart?

Going back into stealth is a really cool idea. The fireball thing is what first popped into my head. It should be hard to do in a room full of alert enemies. Another idea, there’s a chance IF she leaps - without attacking - over two shoulder-to-shoulder enemies who are facing her AND there is no one behind them looking toward her. In the confusion as they’re spinning around to find her, she slips from sight. Also, it seems to me that the stealth shouldn’t be quite so effective, since the entire room’s now actively searching for her.

Please pardon my ignorance… in what situation are all the monster’s in a room panicked?

Mar 11, 2021 6:57

Chad Icon. You can feat-leap over 4 enemies that can all be panicked. But I never had this situation until now. Leap-scroll + haste + normal attack + feat can in principle all performed at once to panic everyone.

Flow was very simple in my mind and maybe that was not clear: I would reset the flow each turn. The user hardly sees this, but is happy about the “luck”. So the flow starts, when the elf first tries to dodge and the second time, she is a bit better and after 3 dodges is in the full “dodge flow”. That is not disturbed by counterattacks.

Stealth from fireball is great, but I am not sure if this alone is a real “game changer”. But breath/explosion could also give a small chance (maybe under special circumstances) like that the “sneak chance” on the current field is high. The main problem with “random evasion” is that it might make things worse. This only makes sense, if the number of attacks the elf receives in THIS turn is reduced a lot (like 2-3 less). But if it appears together with breath or an explosion and leads to sneak, that would all fit together.

Mar 11, 2021 7:54

Re: Going back into stealth

One way to make it controllable by the player would be to have it occur when the player left the room and came back in. Indeed, that happens now, when the character comes back in a different door. Getting it to work on the same door could be an interesting way to make the process scroll-independent.

Re: Randomly jumping around

How do you plan a sequence of moves (perhaps a sequence of leap attacks) if you unexpectedly find yourself out of position? What if you have already sacrificed scrolls to try to get closer to the exit door, and you suddenly find yourself back at the wrong end of the room? Seems like adding more randomness to the game pushes the game in the direction of being more luck-based, and not the direction that I would like to see it go. Putting a random-teleport option into stealth scrolls might be interesting, though.

Re: Making the Lair safer for squishy Elves

A couple of things come to mind. First, increasing the generation of firebugs in the Lair could help.

Second, think about making the carcass of a dead Dragon into a permanent obstacle that players can hide behind. Perhaps to make sure that characters do not get trapped behind Dragon carcasses, allow the player to climb up on top of the dead Dragon, but at the risk of increased visibility and exposure to enemy attack. So, it would be completely safe to do, once the room was cleared.

Third, think about adding monster types that never attack unless attacked first.

Mar 11, 2021 13:36

Dead dragon carcasses are going to be better for the elf than for the human and the dwarf. It’s quite normal playing those characters to take a stand at a particular position and allow the dragons to advance to where the previous dragon was. But if the carcass blocks the way, the dragon gets a breath attack and the human or the dwarf don’t get a melee (counter)attack. With care, that could be useful for the human as dragon carcasses can shape the movement of the other dragons. The dwarf is going to get surrounded by carcasses very quickly.

Quite like the idea of dragon breath being deflected or blocked by a dragon in front.

Elf’s Prowl ability would definitely be a lot more useful if the elf could re-enter sneak mode. I can see that possibly making way for Flow, though. I like the symmetry of Rage increasing when the human gets hit, Gird Loins increasing when the dwarf doesn’t hit, and Flow increasing when the elf hits.

Mar 11, 2021 17:12

I somewhat like Beetletoe’s idea that the elf can sneak back in a room from the exit she left. We’d need to limit it, like maybe she can only do it if there are no monsters adjacent to the exit hexagon. But it feels a bit artificial and annoying to be leaving the room and coming right back, so I’m not sure.

Dragons getting in the way of dragon breath is interesting, but let’s table that.

And, okay, no random jumping when evading. How about this instead, which combines Rellik’s dodge-flow and dodge-stealth suggestions:

If you dodge 3 times during one round, you go into stealth.

Mar 11, 2021 17:47

I suppose the way that would work is that after the third dodge, you’d forgo any counterattack (if evading), and the remaining monsters with turns would do nothing because they would not know where you are. You’d then start your next turn in stealth.

Mar 11, 2021 19:15

How about this:

Rename Evade to be Elude.

Elude I: Increases dodge chance
Elude II: If you dodge 3 times, go into stealth
Elude III: If after a round of eluding, if there are no monsters within 2 spaces, go into stealth

(Maybe we remove the bow counterattack to keep it from being OP)

Mar 11, 2021 19:41

I can’t start a campaign against 16 White Dragons - I get a pop up that says I have to beat 16 Red Dragons in career mode first, which as I understand it is impossible since White comes before Red.

Mar 11, 2021 22:25

OK People listen up:

I am getting REAL tired and Irritated when the Daily Hunt room is filled when Gargantuan, Ginormous, or even bigger monsters!!!!!

Why???

Because YOU CAN’T SEE WHICH WAY TO MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enough all Ready!

Mar 12, 2021 0:21

Hi, Rowdius.

Are you talking about removing the bow counterattack entirely, or only on the turn when stealth kicks in?

Assuming that only the stealth-generating turn loses the counterattack, your Elude I,II,II suggestion sounds interesting.

In fact, on the turn that stealth starts, I would vote for losing both the bow and sword counterattack.

Dodging 3 times within one “round” leaves me wondering what a “round” is.

When I start my next move, does that start a new round, and reset the dodge counter to zero? (If so, 3 dodges within a turn can only happen when I am being attacked by 3 or more enemies.)

In the alternative, if I am fighting a single enemy, does the enemy lose track of me after missing (either 3 times in a row, or 3 times in total, with intervening hits being possible)?

Do my successful dodges count (towards the total of 3) only when I am assuming a defensive stance (elude), or do dodges also count after I attempted either an attack or a move?

Does “dodge” include cases where the monster attacks and misses, simply due to a poor roll? Or only cases where the monster has rolled a “hit”, but I “elude” the hit, due either to the skill or to the magical objects received from the Villagers?

Mar 12, 2021 0:55

zabrakspam1 - You are not allowed to start a campaign if the final phase of the campaign (the red dragons) is higher than you’ve advanced in career mode.

Beetletoe -

You would need to dodge 3 times in one round. Starting your next move restarts the counter. So yes, you would need to suffer at least 3 attacks to even have a chance of going back into stealth. The idea was to give the elf a chance of being able to reposition in a crowded room with lots of attacks going on.

Whether or not going into stealth from 3 dodges is only during Elude/Evade is an open question. We could instead make it a function of the Dodge ability, where it happen any time you dodge 3 times in one round (whether or not Eluding.)

What counts as a dodge would be the same as currently in the game, which only happens if your dice roll was not enough to prevent a hit, but you then succeed in dodging the hit. (So an elf with a good shield does not end up dodging as much because there will be fewer hits to dodge.) Trinkets only come into play if you did not succeed in dodging – so being saved by a trinket would not count as a dodge.

I don’t know whether we would remove bow counterattacks from the Evade/Elude - it depends on how far in the direction of defense we want to take it. If we take out the bow counterattack, we could increase the dodge bonus even more without making Elude over-powered. But regardless, the bow or sword counterattack after the third dodge, and you go into stealth, would be skipped, since that would make no sense. If she wants to attack back, she can do it on the next turn, with the prowl/surprise bonus.

Mar 12, 2021 5:04

3 dodges is a lot of attacks and depends on “first luck”. What about 3 missles or breathes or explosions (anywhere?) lead to stealth without success or not. This means mostly a hit and that is painful enough for the elf.

My first thoughts didn’t like elude III, although it makes a lot of sense. But the more I think about it, the more I like it. One could use it against nasty “leftovers”. I would not take away counterattacks with bow, but make elude I = evade I. You can improve dodge additionally with the higher levels (10% each). If this would be all too strong you can change something else. E.g. let dragons take breath when awake and hero is sneaking. But it is altogether not such a big change, because I won’t risk 3 hits just to go in stealth. I cannot believe that this already outperforms the dwarf, because the dwarf is about 20 dragons in front.

Mar 12, 2021 9:13

Let me make sure that I am clear on what we are discussing.

So, as things stand now, the Evade skill lets me deliberately reduce my chances of being hit, and gives me some chance of hitting back when a monster’s attack fails. It is particularly necessary when multiple monsters are attacking my Elf, because there is a significant chance that if I do NOT act to improve my defense, then she will be hit by a fire bug or skeleton torso getting a free shot, even while my Elf is carrying a +9 shield.

So, the thinking about the Elude skill is that we want to keep the odds on defending/counterattacking exactly the same, except that we want to strengthen the Elf by allowing her to disappear occasionally.

Trouble is, if my back-of-the-envelope calculations are correct, then the 3-Dodge trigger that is being considered will almost never happen (except when the game is already unwinnable).

Suppose that the Elf is fighting exactly 3 Dragons. On very rare occasions, the three Dragons that she is fighting will ALL happen to hit on the same single turn AND THEN all three successful attacks will be happen to be thwarted by Dodge (which is a 1/8 chance for a level 20 Elf, and much worse for level 19 or lower).

So what are the circumstances under which Elude/Stealth has any significant probability of happening? What comes to mind is the case where the Elf is being attacked by 6 Dragons at the same time (including the fact that the ones using breath attacks are synchronized to happen on the same turn, rather than alternate turns). VERY uncommonly, 5 of the dragons all hit on the same turn. Now (for a level 20 Elf), the odds that Dodge blocks 3 of the hits (and fails to block 2 of the hits) are just as good as the odds that Dodge only blocks 2 (and fails to block 3). (And 4-1 will balance 1-4 and 5-0 will balance 0-5.) So, only on these rare turns that the Dragons are synchronized and are having unusually good luck, HALF THE TIME the proposed new skill might allow the Elf to escape with ONLY 2 HP of damage, before disappearing.

Let’s suppose that disappearing actually turns out to get the Elf out of trouble (it might not). If this trapped/massive-damage scenario happens once during a game, then maybe escaping after one turn salvages an otherwise-winnable game (for an Elf that is out of scrolls). But remember that the main reason for considering Elude is to figure out whether Elves can break through the 50-dragon ceiling by functioning well after scrolls are gone.

Not if the new skill requires the Elf to get into serious trouble repeatedly, and FAIL to get out of trouble on most of those occasions. Bottom line: this proposed skill only kicks in a lot in games that the Elf (with +7 weapons) is very likely to lose.

This makes me think that, in order to improve the chances of the scroll-less Elf to win the game, you might need to include both Dodges and Misses in the triggering calculation–but then either raise the threshold number (to 5 or so in the same turn instead of 3) and/or require N misses in a row, without a hit.

Thus, rather than having the new skill kick in in games that the Elf was very likely to lose (because the Dragons are hitting a lot), the skill should kick in in games that the Elf has a good chance to do well in (e.g., +9 shield).

Side note: Interestingly, if MISSES-in-a-row are the trigger, then the strategic Elf gets to take advantage of lower-level monsters that are repeatedly generated by Dragon Mages.

Mar 12, 2021 9:59

Here’s our latest approach:

Dodge Ability: 20% to dodge any hit (40% if missile or breath)

Evade I: When guarding: counter with sword/bow; +20% to dodge chance. (so 40/60)

Evade II: If you dodge while guarding, gain a free movement action after the monsters finish their round. [Like a feat action, where all you can do is move or leap (no leap attack), then take your regular turn.]

Evade III: When guarding, if you dodge twice, or finish the round 2+ away from any monster, go into stealth.

Mar 12, 2021 15:05

Rowdius, I understand what you’re trying to do, and your teams engagement with the fan-base is second to none. Seems like beetletoe is better at figuring out it this is actually going to be an improvement.

The goal of each character being “equal, but different” is great. They do require very different play-styles to prove effective. And your efforts to reward skill and planning over luck (i.e. random chance). To your immense credit, I do enjoy playing each, in their own way, and that wasn’t formerly true.

I see at least two barriers to your goals. The first is the field of battle; the game will always favor the dwarf b/c the rooms - bluntly- are small. One character performs best when he - literally - runs screaming into a crowd of hostiles (not to mention the incredible help wormy lends when he’s called w/ savvy).

The other is - now I could be wrong here - aren’t the proposed changes based on chance? The player doesn’t just DO something to trigger it. The player must do something, then if they pull-off that something, then there’s a CHANCE that the bonus-thing will trigger.

Whereas something like (just throwing out a random example for illustration), “leap 3 times in 3 consecutive moves” (without doing anything else unless you happen to make an attack during a leap) and the bonus-thing triggers. Now, LUCK may not provide an opportunity to leap 3 times in a row, but the player agency is vastly different.

Does that make sense? Sure, you can’t eliminate all probability altogether, I know that…

Mar 12, 2021 17:25

Hi, Rowdius.

Your latest suggestion sounds very promising. I assume that the free move is either a 1-square shift or a regular 2-square leap?

My first impression was that this Evade II might be too strong, because most of the time, the Elf would be able to use two successive moves to teleport to any square in the room.

However, then I remembered that the Elf would be unable to guard at the end of the move, except by using up a scroll. So, in practice, a sequence of move/guard/move/guard would likely take several turns to get the Elf entirely out of trouble.

This makes me optimistic that such a change would indeed allow the Elf to breach the 50-Dragon ceiling, without making the Elf too OP.

Mechanically, the programming should make sure that there is an easy way to decline the “free” move, if the Elf is already where she wants to be.

Mar 12, 2021 17:36

Chad Icon -

The proposals are triggered by chance. But factoring in the chance to make good decisions is skill. Also, what you get (a free move or going into stealth) opens up a lot more meaningful decisions about what to do next, thus increasing the skill factor.

Regarding the dwarf always having an advantage because of the room size … I think we could address that by having more rooms that have fewer, but stronger, monsters.

Beetletoe -

Glad we’re moving in the right direction. (The free move was Masterleep’s idea.) Yes, we’d provide a way to do nothing on your free move.

Mar 12, 2021 18:22

Chad Icon - my response wasn’t very good, but I do appreciate your point about player agency. We’ll keep it in mind.

Mar 12, 2021 22:26

OK PEOPLE:

PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!

I don’t know about the rest of the players. BUT… I am getting really IRRITATED and ANNOYED at you people who run this game. Why??? In regards to “Gargantuan”, “Titanic”, “Humongous”, “Overgrown”, ETC., ETC.

I am really Irritated every DAMN time there so many of these types of monsters in the room, cavern, crypt, bluffs, deserts, ETC., Specifically in the Daily Hunt that:

YOU CAN”T SEE WHERE THE HELL YOU ARE ABLE, WANT TO MOVE!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH OF THIS NONSENSE!!!!!!!

Mar 12, 2021 23:01

LISTEN YOU DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMEN!!!!!!!!

I AM A REALLY TRIED OF YOUR CHEATING!!!!!

QUIT THIS MONSTERS ALWAYS HITTING AND CHARACTERS ALWAYS MISSING EVEN WITH + 8 OR + 9 EQUIPMENT!!!!!

DO I HAVE TO COME OUT AND TEACH YOU HAVE HOW TO BE FAIR!

Mar 13, 2021 2:26

Looks like someone is going on tilt

The free move sounds good, my only concern is, that this changes the gameplay a lot. But “OK”.

I would like to propose one independent additional “vanish moment”: Instead of making the worm not attack, when appearing, we could send the elf into sneak, when the worm appears (maybe with a random move). Meaning: All monsters are looking at the worm, and the elf uses this moment… that way elf and worm could become “friends”.

The human could get “always full swing/cleave”, while the worm is up and all will be happy with that sweetie…

Mar 13, 2021 5:29

I believe we did have a discussion going before about not being able to see behind big monsters. A minimap was popular but tricky on mobile devices, I recall. Not being able to see does become an issue especially in later rooms of the hunt, especially if your quarry is a large monster like giants, ogres, ettins or cave trolls. How about a button that temporarily makes all the characters really small (pipsqueak size perhaps)?

@dread stalker - you can hover over the hexes around you and look to see if the picture of the monster changes top right. That sometimes helps you to see if a space has a small monster concealed behind a larger one, or if there’s a space there.

Mar 13, 2021 6:22

I like it, Rellick! I’m not opposed, at all, to adjusting systems to create abilities unique to the elf. I just keep hoping that something simple might tip the balance. Or, a combination of simple might tip the balance. Like your idea, Rellick.

Or Beetletoe’s idea about stealth re-engaging when elf comes back into the room by same entrance (w/ restrictions as Rowdius wisely suggested).

Maybe it would be boosting her defense die, like the did for the human w/ the bow. That made a big difference, IMO.

or, IF SHE RELIABLY PANICKED ENEMIES DURING LEAP, as dwarf does during very specific circumstances of his charge attack (someone else suggested this too). I know exactly when it will happen with the dwarf, if I execute the correct move, and I use it often.

Another relatively simple idea is to allow more options with the trade at the alter. Still one trade, but why not weapons? The bow is NEARLY useless for the dwarf while fighting dragons; trade 6 points on the bow for 3 more haste scroll (or something like that). Somehow ended up with 4 bolt scrolls? Trade them for 5 leap scrolls. Have a bevy of healing potions, but don’t NEED a better weapon? trade them for something else.

The mathematical relationships between choices is the challenging part for you game-creators to work out… and it should be a “sacrifice” in some way, because, hey, it IS an alter, after all. What if - during tournament - you had a pile of leap scrolls (I can remember sessions where I had 24 or so built up), but a really crappy weapons combo for the human; could you trade them ALL in for the option to send the elf to fight the dragons? That’s not exactly a “sacrifice” maybe, but you see what I’m getting at.

WHAT IF YOU COULD KEEP YOUR POTIONS AND SCROLLS FROM A WINNING DRAGON-FIGHT AND TRADE THEM W/ OTHER PLAYERS AT A MARKETPLACE!! Can’t trade DURING a mission, only before or after. (I know, that’s much more complicated to implement)

… ok… got off track here as the alter-thing is not only about the elf. My and Dread Stalker’s meds obviously need adjusting….

Anyway, you’ve bestowed upon me a tremendous honor in embracing my idea about FLOW; I tried to make it simple - in concept, at least (tried, lol). It’s starting to feel, to me, rather labyrinthine in the execution thereof. I could be wrong. Several people seem to like it. The proof, as always, is in the play.

Forgive me for yammering on so. My point is, there may be changes that are easier, on the programming side, to put in place first.

Mar 13, 2021 10:36

Dread Stalker - Regarding monsters blocking the view, we are planning to add a button that reduces the size of all the monster art.

Rellik - Going into stealth when the worm appears has a nice feel to it, but I’m afraid it makes the worm appearance too much of a game changer. I could see giving her the free move action, though. But do you think it would make the game better for the elf to have no fear of the worm? Right now, if there’s just a monster or two left in a room with pits, the worm makes for at least some cause for concern.

Chad Icon - Implementing Flow should not be too hard. Here’s our planned design: Each use of the sword adds a +1 flow bonus to subsequent sword attacks. Each use of the bow adds a +1 flow bonus to subsequent bow attacks. Bonuses stack but are capped based on the skill level (eg. +3/+4/+5). All flow bonuses go back to 0 whenever she is attacked or leaves the room. (Multiple leap attacks each add to flow as they happen.)

Everyone - There’s another issue I haven’t brought up. And that’s how to implement Flaming Arrow as an unlock for all heroes. Do you like how the current flaming arrow works? I haven’t been that happy with it because it’s difficult to explain and understand. As an elf skill, that’s okay, but as an unlock, I think it might be better to take the approach we were considering before: If you are adjacent to a flame, you get a bow bonus. (the idea being you are setting the arrow aflame before notching it.)

Mar 13, 2021 17:38

Ok, Rowdius. Have at it and let’s see what happens.

About flaming arrow. Am I to understand that the elf will keep stacking bonuses for flame-on spaces between her and enemies, and the other two will get a set bonus at unlock?

Also, I don’t perceive any difficulty in the explanation given. I understood it immediately.

Finally, my answer is yes. I like the flaming arrow in its current iteration. It’s not as easy to implement as some might imagine, but I like it.

Mar 13, 2021 17:58

Hi, Rowdius.

So, your intended implementation of Flow is often going to convert Feats into (most likely) chain Feats that do not terminate until the room is cleared, provided that the Elf is careful not to switch weapons, and, early on, to prioritize weak monsters with high Feat bonuses?

Right now, with the weapon bonus NOT increasing due to flow, during a Feat, there is a tactical question of what to do when the most dangerous monster in the room (sometimes the strongest monster, and sometimes the closest) shows up on my screen with a Feat bonus attached. Do I kill it now to reduce the immediate danger (likely ending the chain) or do I try to prolong the Feat by choosing a weaker target? This added Flow bonus could certainly affect the decision.

As for the Flaming Arrow, I definitely like the way it works now. The current implementation requires the arrow to go over a flame. The flame is not required to be located adjacent to the Elf. Indeed, if the elf is shooting at a monster 3 hexagons away, then a +2 Flame bonus is possible if the arrow travels over two flames that are located at different distances from the Elf.

If you wanted to make Flaming Arrow available to the Human and the Dwarf, it could work exactly the same way (even though their odds of hitting a distant target would be far lower).

It sounds as if you are considering making the Flame bonus contingent on having the flame located adjacent to the character, but not required to be along the path. Would that requirement eliminate the cases (that are currently available to the Elf) of being able to use (a) two flames and (b) one flame that was along the path, and non-adjacent?

IF the proposed change would indeed cause the Flame bonus to work the same for all characters, THEN the proposed change would make the Human and Dwarf stronger than they are now, RELATIVE to the Elf.

That would not necessarily be a bad thing, IF it turns out that the proposal to give the Elf a free move after Dodge AND the proposal to implement an Elf Flow bonus turn out to make the Elf OP. But how would we know that until AFTER trying the other Elf changes? I would wait and see (particularly because ANY change in the Flame bonus seems unlikely to be very meaningful for any character other than the Elf).

Mar 13, 2021 18:05

No, Flaming Arrow would go away as an elf skill. Instead, it would be an unlock for all heroes, who would use it in the same way (whatever that way is).

As a skill, Flaming Arrow has three levels. As an unlock, we would need to pick just one - unless we have a Flaming Arrow II unlock.

So the question is whether the Flaming Arrow unlock should work basically like the current elf skill, or whether it should work like the above description (if a flame is next to you, you get a bonus.)

(We need to get rid of an elf skill to make room for Flow skill. And Flaming Arrows makes more sense as something anyone can do.)

Mar 13, 2021 18:08

Possible bug in the documentation.

In the RULES, there are two different explanations of which monsters become panicked during a Bull Rush.

The first description (under the heading “Panic”) says:

The human bull rushing a monster into a pit will cause ALL monsters to panic.

The second description (under the heading The Human Swordsman/Abilities) says:

… causing any monster ADJACENT TO THAT PIT to panic and skip their next turn.

I do not play the Human often enough to know which of these two explanations are accurate, but they seem to be contradictory.

Mar 13, 2021 18:13

Hi, Rowdius.

What about a compromise between Flame Shot I and Flame Shot II? +2 for shooting over one flame and +3 for shooting over two flames.

Mar 14, 2021 5:50

@beetletoe - FYI the “Panic” description is the old one and is no longer correct. Bull Rush has been altered since to the description under the Swordsman’s abilities.

@Chad Icon - you’re right that the bow is nearly useless for the dwarf when fighting dragons. However, it did help me get the 50th dragon in last week’s tournament when I only had one hit point and fire scrolls left. I had the good fortune to be able to pen the dragon in and shoot arrows at it until I had enough focus to actually hit. You need a lot of arrows, even with a good bow!

The fact that the swordsman and the dwarf create reliable panic makes a considerable difference when calculating moves. You will not take a hit from those monsters. The dwarf’s 75% cleave on charge feat skill is quite annoying because the chance is large enough to think about but small enough that it often fails resulting in a hit back. You still have to treat it as a lucky bonus. For me the elf’s 75% panic is much the same.

Mar 14, 2021 7:14

Raand999, you will get no argument here re: your analysis of “panic” nor of cleave-dwarf compared to panic-elf. For me - with the elf because she is both so easy to hit and has only 2 hp - any time the odds drop below 79% on an action that might fail, resulting in an enemy’s attack, I must carefully weigh the action’s value.

Unless she has an above-average collection of potions, I would rather use a scroll than risk a hit in that scenario. The elf is very-much a glass cannon.

You are also correct about the dwarf’s bow, his die being the worst of all the characters for that weapon. Not useless; only nearly useless.

And I had a similar experience in this last tournament. A massive stack of unused fire scrolls, a +9 bow, with Wormy chomping on the mage-dragon in the far corner, while I tested the commitment of my “quiver-of-endless-arrows” from behind a firewall.

Dwarf cleared that room w/o taking damage. But, alas, starting against 40 dragons w/ only a +7 sword and 8 healing potions… well, a positive outcome for that quest was, shall we say, unlikely.

Mar 14, 2021 15:48

Flame Arrow: Solution: Adjacent or any flyover gives +2

Mar 14, 2021 16:47

It’s my turn to wait in the tournament this week! I managed to top Nudnik’s 40(29) with 40(42) but beetletoe is not out on 40 dragons!

Mar 15, 2021 5:42

Kudos to raand9999 for winning the tournament 3 times in a row.
For this achievement, there could be a special tournament challenge cup.

Mar 15, 2021 6:27

Thanks Rellik. I got better at sneaking and running away :-) Crocs and spiders don’t look so scary when you show up with a +9 shield to get your stuff! But I thought beetletoe was going to beat me this time.

Mar 16, 2021 6:21

Well, the worm… it just got cost me 3 potions with the elf. That is insane considering 48 dragons to beat and full 7 drop in the ruins. I would not want a free move, that is too easy, but some kind of own influence to my fate.

What about a warning one turn before? Something like “the ground trembles”. That is similar to “no attack in the first turn” but has the nice tactical decision, that you don’t now where it comes up. For simplicity you could just set the worm invisible for the first turn (and no attack of cause).

Mar 16, 2021 6:53

When elf has a feat and the user decides for “leap” instead of “leap attack”, after that first move it should go back on “leap attack”. I cannot imagine a case where the user would use 2 “leaps”, and ignores a chance to attack twice. Instead I ALWAYS have to toggle twice. (off and on again).

Mar 16, 2021 16:39

Please help me understand how dodge, for the elf, works in conjunction with a shield. So, starting out, she has 30%. Does the chance for dodge kick in when the shield’s bonus fails to beat the attack? Or is the shield bonus added to the chance to dodge? OR… are they completely separate and have nothing to do with each other, as far as odds-calculations go?

Mar 17, 2021 1:28

To my understanding it is used when the shield fails, but before trinkets are used. So you can also dodge with a 1 roll. Be carfull with fireballs: You only dodge them when guarding. Dodge normally only applies to archers and breath. I am unsure about the mithril. Logically this should be between dodge and trinket. I assume you have to multiply all the chances: E.g. if you leap over one dragon:
suffer_a_hit_chance=(8/10 if_no_feat)(1 - chance_panicked)(1 - chance_block)(1 - chance_dodge)(1 - chance_mithril)*(7/8 if_trinket)

Mar 17, 2021 1:56

Aren’t gargoyles much too strong without being able to bull-rush them with a freaking 6-equip against 6/9? Already a slight resize gives some 11 defense monsters. And there are lots of ranged, too…

Mar 17, 2021 8:11

Dodge is checked after a normal hit occurs. The order of hit effects is:

Dodge Parry Mithril Resist Trinkets

All that really matters at the moment is that trinkets go last.

Mar 17, 2021 15:48

Thanks for answers re: elf-dodge

Bare Hand: I was scratching my head about that too. Gargoyles are awful tough for (any) character w/ only +6 equipment. On the other hand, the associate baddies were mostly wimpy. Kinda the opposite of their usual in the hunt. “ooo, hunt beetles. yeah, yeah, little, crunchy beetles!” and the associate baddies are specters and ettins

Mar 17, 2021 18:34

I didn’t check, but it must have been +5 for gargoyles and +1 for the wheat fields. I thought +6 was a bit weak for the gargoyles too. No spellcasters but they have quite strong missiles. I got around 50 with the dwarf though so maybe turning to stone saves hits (gird loins works good with stone gargoyles :-)). Not so good with the swordsman but perhaps I could have played better. As is often the case, I got many of them when I was down to 3 hit points and had the +2 adrenaline.

@chad icon - I thought that about the beetles in one hunt and then with only +3 sword that 4/6 oversized beetle suddenly became an object of concern! And your +3 bow and shield aren’t looking so safe against the 8/3 gas spore conjurors either.

Mar 17, 2021 18:43

Like the new symbols for elf, dwarf and human on the Tournament table. But the Advanced tag has gone. I can’t see now if I’m still leading the Basic players.

Mar 17, 2021 21:11

Maybe we can give our enimatic stranger an “A” :) That sign is great! Especially, because I challenge raands and other dwarf this week with my elf ;D. I really thought I would be the only elf up there… Now the truth comes to light!

Mar 18, 2021 1:16

What a huge relief after my 50-elf-tournament: 4 sword / 5 bow against several mummies + 3 mummy mages + 2 specters -> FEAR! -> 7 sword -> ARRRGH -> 7 shield -> Head on desk -> 9 BOW! -> shoot em all!!

Mar 18, 2021 7:39

I reckon that means Rellik has got 50 dragons in the tournament with the brawler, the swordsman and the huntress now. Kudos! I’ve only ever got 50 dragons once. (Actually I’ve never seen Rellik get less than 50 dragons in the tournament!)

The new elf/dwarf/swordsman symbols are great!

Mar 18, 2021 9:36

Well raand, to my shame, I must confess several things:

  • 5 months ago I misclicked and instead of slaying a ghoul I shot the monster behind. That ghoul and his friends then stunned me to death (without armor, because of shooting) early in tournament.
  • I also only achieved 50 roughly 4 times now

  • The human was “cheated”: When they introduced the new skills (skewer etc.) I saw my chance. I was able to “feat-series” through 50 dragons. After my tournament win they decreased the chance of feat-series tremendously. I think I couldn’t do that anymore. But I liked that a lot! I hope they will raise the cap somewhen to balance all characters to the same level. It is such a simple value.

  • Dwarf is still capable to go farest - in principle. But I play all characters “on adrenaline” and had a bad encounter this week: I went into the lair with 3 health as usual, got gird loins and was killed with +3+2+2 defense BONUS with 3 dragons next to me and 2 other shooting. That let me recalculate my chances and realize that it might happen to loose with the dwarf in tournament with my playing style (1% per such risk). That gave me enough courage to try it with the elf instead, which I brought to lvl 18 this week.

  • Playing elf on adrenaline is an insanely complicated task, because you need to know EXACTLY what you are doing. Any overlooked dragon move&breath or just “not considering possible worms” is sure death. However, if you like hard work on adrenaline you can go up to 40 dragons with her. The rest is additional luck (at least for me).
Mar 19, 2021 3:11

Additional comment to the new elf: I just punshed through 41 black dragons with just a single potion use. I had just 5 fire scrolls and 8,7,7 drop, so I went “all in” by improving the sword to 9! I tried hard to always end haste&leap turns with normal “double-leap-attack” to maximize the chance of feats. That was a lot of fun, but it eats up hastes and leaps like a hungry Dung monster. For the final 8 dragons (task was 49), I used another 2.5 potions.

What we have learned: Elf can go without fire and bow, when flooded with leap and haste scrolls and there are not “too many” dragons. You roughly need one leap or haste per dragon with a 9 sword and some fortune with the dices.

Mar 20, 2021 13:48

This is good strategy to know, Rellik. Thank you for sharing. I often wondered about the vague wording on some of the ways to trigger feats. How you run the elf on adrenalin, ikd. Do we now HAVE the option to leave potions behind?

I do try to maximize the leap-attacks whenever possible, but haven’t noticed that feats are more likely when I do (though it seems logical. If hacking at 4 dragons mid-leap, sheathing your sword, whipping out your bow, knocking an arrow and being ready to fire as soon as your feet hit the ground doesn’t qualify as an epic deed, then we all need to get out more).

I could not beat 19 dragons with all +9 weapons, but then I didn’t have that many scrolls collected. I think your elf is higher level than mine too. “panic” in nowhere near dependable and she’s just too easy to hit. I could have flattened them all with relative ease with human or dwarf.

Mar 21, 2021 6:24

Two “Huh?”s on Elf that occurred to me while trying to beat down a herd of green dragons (and… all I can say is, dragons in the game’s reality must breed like locusts,! LOL)

1: Why doesn’t her “prowl” bonus also apply to bow attacks? Makes complete sense that it SHOULD, and she’s the bow-fighter for Jupiter’s sake!

2: (this could apply to all 3, but Elf is supposed to be QUICK… AND she has no “sure” panic-inducer, as do Dwarf and Human) I your enemy is so stunned w/ panic that they can’t move for a moment, should there not be some bonus to attack, or some penalty to the enemy’s defense?

Mar 21, 2021 13:04

Also for Elf, can we please, PLEASE, PLEASE know, immediately, when an enemy is panicked? Just because the results are per-odds shouldn’t mean we only know the outcome when it’s useful 50% of the time.

Like w/ a leap scroll over multiple attackers and Elf has another move left, to either turn and attack or make another move.

Such information is strategically very important to Her-Wimpiness. And it annoys me to see 2 enemies “panic” while a third indicates nothing until she puts another space between her and it, only to find out, “Oh… yeah, yeah, um, I’m panicked too!” grrrr!

Mar 22, 2021 0:08

8 Dragons for the first place in tournament? LOOOL. You should make it at least half of the previous dragons before counting it as “something”.
You interrupted my game, so this question comes to my mind: Do dragons from such interrupted games count or not?

Mar 22, 2021 6:48

Hi, Rellik.

My game-in-progress from last week disappeared once the Tournament was over. I actually fell asleep. However, on a previous occasion, I found that resigning the game before 12AM PDT gets your current Dragon total to register in the Tournament.

Besides, doesn’t winning with 8 Dragons set a new record?

Mar 22, 2021 8:45

Well, I was on a hackthon the whole weekend. When I rejoined I saw this “curiosity” and knew, that I don’t even need 10 minutes to kill 8 dragons (I watched my times last week), aborted my almost finished career game to start this, but got interrupted almost instantly. I thought it would one more hour. Would be good to have a clock somewhere. I think the 8 dragons were exactly the reason why I said I prefer playing the elf: If you play dwarf on adrenaline, you can die with a very small chance in almost every room. But that shall not lessen the honour weirlooking deserves. He won a fair tournament and must have almost died from tension and excitement whether I would play again or not. The first place is fair enough for this.

Mar 22, 2021 14:50

Another tournament goes to the last minutes. Not me this time! Well done weirlooking.

Mar 22, 2021 17:05

Bug: if you click on “compete with other dungeoneers for an XP bonus” on the tournament opening screen, it still has the old dragon sequence 2,4,6,8 etc.

Mar 22, 2021 20:31

Hi, Glenden.

Question 2 is easier:

None of the equipment that you win in one game carries over to the next game.

What carries over is your (character-specific) XP, which defines that character’s level and skills.

Mar 23, 2021 0:20

Glenden, the mithril gives a 20% chance to repel a hit. Good catch on the 25% … it was still in one of the dialogs.

Mar 23, 2021 2:15

I have an idea for fairer tournament ranking, while keeping the randmoness of the game: To decrease the luck-dependency, the final best score should be 10 times the number of dragons slain divided by (1+highest equip). So if you slay 50 dragons with 9-equip the score is 50. But if you slay them with 8 equip, the score is 55.55. Other examples:
40 dragons with 9 equip gives 40.00
30 dragons with 7 equip gives 42.86
I think that is fair. To get a 40 score with 1-equip, one would have to kill 20 dragons - which is I think still an incredible/impossible success. That shows me, that this score seems to be fair over a wide range of outcomes, maybe a bit biased toward good equip -> but much less than now.
That would also allow to just count the highest score in any game. So if anybody dies with 8 dragons, that does not count, but the better 50. What do you think?

Mar 23, 2021 5:52

Hehe yeah I was hoping Rellik was busy elsewhere during the weekend. Otherwise I believed he definitly would have enjoyed killing 9 dragons :)

Mar 23, 2021 9:24

Hi, Bare Hand.

As I see it, the problem with trying to apply a correction factor is that:

All three weapons have an effect. Potions and scrolls have an effect. The “fairness” score should have to do with what items were available, rather than what the player managed to pick up. The effects of the weapon quality number on the probabilities are non-linear.

Instead of modifying the score, I would vote for modifying the dungeon-layout-generating routine so that poor weapon availability was compensated for by awarding larger numbers of scrolls and potions.

Also, a case can be made that the current luck-based results are FAIR because every player enjoys the same odds during dungeon generation. Perhaps a better question is how much we want the outcome to be influenced by luck-vs-skill, player level, and riskiness-vs-consistency.

Mar 23, 2021 10:31

OK two things beetletoe: What you say on the one hand is that “max weapon is not all”. That is true. But: Everything else is complicated. The user should be able to understand the score. Of course one could say, that “a dungeon difficulty score is generated at the beginning” and this is shown and the score you get. That is possible, but probably a huge discussion.

What you then propose instead of “make a score” is “adjust the score” so that all dungeons of a certain torunament position have “the same” difficulty. That is very tricky, because it heavily depends on the chosen hero.

I would suggest a very simple compensation algorithm (we can talk about single numbers, but let me explain the principle):

potion=10 leap scroll=3 haste scroll=3 flame scroll=4 vanish scroll=4 lightning scroll=4

For available equip I would suggest the formula: 7 points for one 8 equip. 20 points for one 7 equip.

That would mean 7,7,7 instead of 9,9,9 would be compensated by 20 hastes or leaps or 6 potions or any combination. That could be directly performed in the ruin boss room-generation: If there is a 7 weapon: get 20 points and put a random compensation in this room (e.g. 2 potions or 5 lightnings). This is not enough to compensate a bad “main” weapon, but the minor weapons are also compensated and there is still a chance to find a cool weapon anywhere else.

Mar 23, 2021 12:19

Hi, Rellik.

Yes, I agree. Rather than trying to adjust the player’s score after the fact, simply award extra scrolls and potions, above some standard minimum number that everybody automatically gets. Perhaps the question of how valuable each scroll type is could be decided by a principal component analysis of the database of historical player results.

I am intrigued by the specific numbers that you suggest, though. Did the numbers that you chose reflect your actual opinion of the value of the scrolls, or did you only intend the numbers to suggest that SOME numbers would be appropriate? Your specific numbers seem to suggest that leap scrolls are fairly useless (10) and that lightning scrolls are relatively valuable (4). At least for the Elf, probably the opposite is true.

Mar 23, 2021 23:42

You really need to do something about the to hit rolls. I have better luck hitting on range with the warrior and dwarf, then mellee. same goes for melee to range for the elf

Mar 24, 2021 0:44

Beetletoe, that was not very readable, because my line breaks vanished. It was not meant to be potion=10 leaps, but potion=10 (points)
leaps=3 (points)

So roughly leaps=hastes=3 points and flame=vanish=lightning= 4 points

I though “how many dragons can I kill with that scroll” and multyplied by two for easier numbes. In fact I calculate something like that when thinking about a room.

Mar 24, 2021 0:48

It must be: “ Beetletoe, that was not very readable, because my line breaks vanished. It was not meant to be potion=10 leaps, but
potion=10 (points) leaps=3 (points) … So roughly leaps=hastes=3 points and flame=vanish=lightning= 4 points

I thought “how many dragons can I kill with that scroll” and multyplied by two for easier numbers. In fact I calculate something like that when thinking about a room. “ Sry for confusing my accounts. But who else would kill 10 dragons in tournament with bare hands, if not rellik nogard? ;)

Mar 24, 2021 0:49

somehow these line breaks are kididng me… we need a preview…

Mar 24, 2021 3:10

10(4) is a decent result for a Basic player in the Tournament even with the available weapons!!

Mar 24, 2021 5:37

This is why I stopped playing the career: Progress closes the boss rooms and potions are not available.
But I must admit, that I need a perfect drop, two good lair room layouts AND luck with the dices to kill 10 dragons. It is the first time I got 10 and I think it ends there (without tunnels).

Mar 24, 2021 9:09

You stopped too late - so did I. I mistakenly thought campaigns (and particularly a 3 dragon campaign) would be useful but actually it would have been better to stop at level 11 when all the ruins rooms are still open. I lose one boss room and it’s frustrating to see the extra potions I need waiting where I can’t get them. Hunts and the tournament are much more efficient at increasing XP than playing low-level campaigns and resigning on the last dragon. There’s nothing useful for a Basic player after the campaigns are opened.

Mar 25, 2021 1:10

I tried several times to propose something easy to implement to change that. Here is my next try: What about making the boss room weapons simply available for any dungeoneer? Still there is a lot content not available (elf,dwarf,tunnels, mithril, altar, scrolls, hunt repeat). Another option would be to “close” only one of the boss rooms per game (ideally not the one with 2 potions).

Mar 25, 2021 4:35

Or, just don’t drop the standard allocation of potions etc into the boss rooms. Feel free to drop additional bonus items into the boss rooms if it’s warranted - IMHO the boss rooms are supposed to be an advantage for Advanced players, not a disadvantage for Basic players. Basic players would be guaranteed at least 6 potions that way (according to the tables in the rules). Perhaps this is already the case, but it doesn’t feel like it.

Mar 26, 2021 17:41

I get what you’re saying, Glenden. If indeed the pit-plunge is what induces panic, creatures who are plunge-proof would probably be like, “Meh, sucks to be you.”

I believe in actual D&D, many or most undead creatures are immune to fear. However, despite the admirable verisimilitude it might add to the game, I in no way wish to advocate making the bosses more difficult.

Mar 26, 2021 21:02

Are you people having trouble identifying monsters? You Must Be!

Today’s Daily Hunt Says “Minotaurs” , Yet so Far I have Encountered damn near nothing but “Rats” of all sizes, Say at least 95% so far.

Mar 26, 2021 22:34

If you have a move with 99.9% chance of surviving and it does not happen, it feels like that undo should happen…

Mar 27, 2021 10:23

Hi, everyone.

We tried out a lot of the above ides for the elf, such as flow and going into stealth if you dodge twice in a round.

Flow did not prove to be fun. It was an extra thing to keep track of, and it’s a bad feeling to lose your flow because you prefer to do a different type of action.

And going into stealth based on dodging twice in a round didn’t feel right. It was too random and difficult to follow.

But we ended up with some changes we like. They may get tweaked, but here is where we stand:

Leap Attack I: Attack what you leap over. 50% chance targets become panicked.
Leap Attack II: Feats are triggered by leap attacks with a roll of 10 (or 9 vs. dragons)
Leap Attack III: Chance of panic also applies to any monster adjacent to elf’s landing.

Dodge: 20% chance to dodge any hit, but 40% if missile or breath.

Evade I: When guarding: counterattack with bow/sword; become blurred with +20% dodge (so, 40/60)
Evade II: Blur remains in effect for an additional round (but does not stack if you evade twice)
Evade III: After evading two rounds in a row, go into stealth.

(Blur would include a visual indication of being blurred. So you would know that you have +20% to dodge and that, if you choose to evade again while already blurred, you’ll go into stealth at the end of the round.)

We are also thinking that we’ll reduce the elf XP requirements to match the dwarf.

Sound good?

Mar 27, 2021 12:15

I haven’t played the elf much, so apologies if this question has an obvious answer: If I have leap attack II and I use a scroll to leap over 4 enemies, do I have 4 chances to get a feat by rolling a 10?

Mar 27, 2021 14:30

Raand - yes. And if it’s dragons, you only need a 9.

Mar 28, 2021 6:56

That seems like a nice change.

Mar 28, 2021 10:55

A concern has been raised that Leap Attack III is counter to the strategy of NOT landing next to monsters you don’t attack.

Rellik suggested an alternative:

Leap Attack III: You can do a 3 space leap attack (without a scroll) if every tile you are leaping over has a monster. So you could leap attack over 2 monsters in a direct row, or 4 monsters if not in a direct row.

Or maybe we just limit it to: you can leap attack over 2 monsters that are in a direct row.

Mar 28, 2021 11:37

Thank you Rowdius and the whole Dungeoneers Team! I don’t say that for the proposed changes, but for your willingness to engage and adapt. I have never played a game where that’s as true as it is here. And that’s the reason I came up off the ridiculous $15 for this game, because your commitment to the people who play it is equally ridiculous!

Regarding your proposed changes, I very much would like panic amongst the monsters she lands beside - in addition to the ones she leaps over - only b/c it often simply cannot be avoided, and I grow tired of constantly rolling my eyes over how freakishly-easy it is for her enemies to hit her. I swear, I burn more - and more kinds - of scrolls for Elf just to keep baddies one space away than for anyone else, then throw in freakin’ Wormy and other archers for a complete Sht-shw.

And, OMG, what really knots my knickers is how much I used to LOVE-LOVE-LOVE playing her! SO much fun………. And I know, OBVIOUSLY I suck, b/c no one complains about it as much as me (somebody call the WAAAmbulance)

On lowering her XP requirements, IT’S ABOUT TIME!!! I never understood why the character that’s hardest to play, the least powerful, and the easiest to kill took the longest to lvl up. If anyone should require extra XP, it’s the stupid-powerful (and incredibly fun to play) DWARF!

Anyway, that’s my opinion, and thanks for all the fish!

Mar 28, 2021 14:28

Rowdius: If it should be a feat with a leap scroll, it is a bug, that it does not work.

I thought it is “normal” that haste and leap scrolls don’t trigger feats in their actions (of course this often feels like a waste if e.g. you throw a 12 with a haste scroll and get nothing). The only way to triggr 4 chances of feats is inside a feat - and that is not so easy to “start”, because you need a normal attack and cannot jump over 2 of the 4 with a normal leap attack. I just did this 4-attack one or two times at all.

Mar 28, 2021 14:34

Sorry, Raand - Rellik is right. You can’t generate feats during scroll use. I wasn’t considering that when I answered your question.

Mar 28, 2021 14:42

We’re going to release the above elf changes tomorrow morning. (Keeping the panic on monsters adjacent to elf’s landing, and then reconsider it after people have played it.)

We will also be adding something Rellik suggested a while ago: when guarding, trinkets can be activated by a roll of 1 or2.

Mar 29, 2021 5:33

“We are also thinking that we’ll reduce the elf XP requirements to match the dwarf.”

Does this mean that if i have enough exp when you change it to match the dwarf, that Elf will gain a level?

Mar 29, 2021 7:42

So, currently, my Elf can shoot across the room (albeit with a lowered hit probability). This was the result of getting to level 22 (in the old scheme) about a week ago. It has made the Elf a lot more fun to play. But the result is clearly not OP, as she still needs above-average weapons and potions to survive in the Tournament, or to make progress in Career mode.

So if the new intended changes do not work out, I would definitely vote for reverting to the current Elf configuration.

One possible bug (depending on what is intended here) is that when the Elf is attacked with a fireball from 3 spaces away, or fewer, she returns fire. However, when the Elf is attacked from 4 spaces away (i.e., across the room) she does not return fire, even though she is now theoretically capable of attacking at that distance.

Is this inconsistency indeed what was intended?

Mar 30, 2021 23:39

Glenden -

Mithril works everywhere.

And you are not appearing in the Campaign standings because of a bug. It will be fixed with the next release. Thanks for pointing it out.

Mar 31, 2021 10:31

Today’s daily hunt has one faulty background. The Shadow Caves giant hunt is made harder by segments of different backgrounds or even missing altogether (white background with the hexagons and creatures showing on top of it).

Mar 31, 2021 17:07

Oh good, Tandu. I thought it was because the cat had just walked across my keyboard!

Apr 1, 2021 6:12

So that’s (cat’s) why the background was bugged. I won’t demand compensations in health potions if only because I slew over 100 giants on the first try.

Apr 2, 2021 12:58

Aha! No feats with scrolls. I thought it might have been no feats with haste scrolls (because combining the feat with the extra turn is hard). I guess using magic to improve your chances just isn’t very heroic :-)

Nice going with the giants, Tandu!

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