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Dec 27, 2020 9:26

And a less skittish worm

The dwarf’s charge bonus is now +2 instead of +3, and disorientation from charging only applies to monsters that are adjacent to both the target and the dwarf.

And the purple worm will no longer get disoriented by a dwarf charge.

Dec 27, 2020 9:30

Also, something coming soon which will help the dwarf is that we are going to give make the focus bonus apply to your last miss, even if it was from a counterattack (or leap attack).

Also, we are thinking about making it easier to call the worm. The idea by eddiert that you guard after bellowing was good, although it raises the question of what happens if you bellow during a haste or a feat. Maybe we should just have it not take a turn - so the only cost to calling the worm is that the worm may get hurt?

Dec 27, 2020 10:17

Ok these changes came in while I was playing a hunt (no message came up for me).
Now I know why I took so many hits. They’re really bad changes. You get hit in the back all the time on a charge into a pack. He wasn’t overpowered. Going back to playing the swordsman instead.

Dec 27, 2020 10:53

Please give the changes a chance. Having to think twice about charging into a pack if you are leaving someone behind takes a bit of getting used to. But once it’s the behavior you expect, I think the gameplay feels a bit better. Our data was showing the dwarf as overpowered, but we are open to changing him again if this correction went to far.

Sorry that the news did not come up during the hunt. We need to fix that.

Dec 27, 2020 11:18

Having played an entire 12 dragon campaign now with only the dwarf, and several hunts, I am certain that this will change the dwarf’s gameplay back to fighting one on one, like before, and like a poor version of the swordsman. He will be trashed in the lair. To have a chance against dragons, brawl against reasonable sized monsters, he has to be able to use charge and frenzy together without getting hit. He takes one strike off the dragon he attacks anyway. He will take hits hunkering on the moves after. That is what actually worked. You have reduced both the chance of a massive hit and added the almost certainty of getting stabbed in the back with 4 reasonable monsters because he won’t have resist on melee and with 4 monsters one will be behind him. I did no better on any of the hunts with the dwarf than the swordsman. I played several with both for comparison. I got 50 or 60 crocodiles with both. Around 100 bugbears with both.

Never mind.

Dec 27, 2020 12:16

It may be true the dwarf is under-powered vs. the dragons right now, but I don’t want large dragon battles to be the driving force behind the design. We want the characters to be fun and balanced in normal situations

My problem with the prior dwarf was that the gameplay was too one-side and reckless, where you just aimed for the largest pile of monsters. The new system still includes a lot of charging into the fray, just not quite as much. The gameplay is more thoughtful and careful. But maybe the dwarf shouldn’t be so thoughtful?

Please try the new dwarf in the dungeon and hunts to get used to the new gameplay, then let us know which style is more fun. (Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to beat my 90 crocs with the new dwarf - lvl 16.)

If people prefer a dwarf that doesn’t have to watch his back, then maybe we’ll just go back to that. But if you like the new gameplay, but just feel it doesn’t work against dragons, what do you think this:

Frenzy II and III increase defense as well as attack

Dec 27, 2020 13:01

FYI if you charge a monster, get a massive hit and then step back and charge another monster, all the monsters from both charges get disoriented. This is, at least, slightly helpful.

Dec 28, 2020 5:14

Got a couple of glitches in today’s Daily Hunt versus Hags. One is that the Dwarf got a Resisted effect on a normal attack from one Hag; this might kind of make sense if the assumption that a Hag is covered in Slime, but I figured it was probably just an error. The other, much more significant issue is that, with 59 hag toes collected and only 1 hit point remaining, I entered the next room, killed a Hag Witch, and DIDN’T get my 60th toe, then was immediately killed by a normal Hag who I’d ignored. The Witches absolutely counted as Hags in every previous room, so I don’t know what the problem was this time.

Dec 28, 2020 5:16

Ah, just read the earlier Dwarf topic. The Resistance must have been due to Hunker, I didn’t know about that. But the other topic states that there are two Worms per daily hunt, whereas I only ever get one.

Dec 28, 2020 7:20

It was reduced to one on the 24th.

Dec 28, 2020 10:13

Maybe I was just unlucky but on two goes at the hunt I seemed to come across a substantial number of medium-ranking spellcasters and missile monsters in the early (first three) rooms of the hunt - gas spore conjurors (8,3) gas spore needlers (7,2), skeleton witch (8,2), goblin shamans (5,0). With only +3 those seemed out of proportion for the beginning of the hunt. Once it was mostly hags, +3 was fair but by then I only had one hit point left.

Curiously on the third go, I have +4 weapons.

Dec 28, 2020 11:11

I’ve tried the new new dwarf. He’s pretty good at the hunt (my level 13 dwarf managed to get 99 crocs once I learned how to play the new rules, and seemed tougher against all those spellcasters in the village cellars, but he did have +4 weapons). Gameplay is very much more defensive. It’s still slightly different from the swordsman. I guess that’s what you wanted.

I used him once or twice playing career rooms but I didn’t find myself choosing him often. There were one or two rooms where I thought halfway through playing the room that I might have been better off using him than the swordsman, but it wasn’t obvious from the initial room layout.

Dec 28, 2020 13:51

@BinderIncarnate, and other hag hunters - there was a bug that caused hag witches to not be counted. “Bug” being me forgetting to add hag_witches to the hag hunt. (The hags you were seeing were native to the region, and because they were not in the hunt list, they were not getting counted for bounty.) We fixed this a few hours ago, after you reported it.

Dec 30, 2020 7:43

Just got Advanced Dungeoneers! Fun fact: when leveling multiple times, like from 3 to 6, for example, it shows the most recent skill unlocked, so it showed my dwarf the bellow skill when leveling up, but not the frenzy skill.

Dec 30, 2020 11:44

A dragon just attacked twice in a turn, a fire-breath hitting me, and a melee attack hitting a worm. Was that supposed to happen?

Dec 30, 2020 12:12

Avarice - yes, the breath attack is in addition to the dragon’s regular action.

Dec 31, 2020 7:58

New dwarf is awesome, fun to play, lots of tactical decisions to make against the dragons. I like it.

Dec 31, 2020 8:44

Despite my previous comments, I agree with whand now I have played the new new dwarf a lot. The gameplay is still different from the swordsman even though it is now more one-on-one than the old new dwarf. And he is quite capable in the lair with some scrolls (all the heroes need scrolls in the lair). But as whand says, you do have to think about what you’re doing (like with the others).

I like that he is less dependent on fire scrolls in the lair than the swordsman and probably the huntress (I rarely play the huntress in the lair). Having lots of leap scrolls and little fire is a disadvantage for the swordsman in the lair, but the dwarf works well with that.

I’ve managed to play him all the way up to 15 dragons in the tournament so far. He’s had some close calls - a few unfavourable starting rooms in the caverns and bad spins on weapons; all part of what makes the game interesting - but he has managed one way or another so far.

Jan 2, 2021 13:45

Thanks, everyone. We’re happy with the new dwarf.

We recently fixed a bug where the Gird Loins bonus was not being awarded if you were attacked but didn’t counterattack. Now if you hunker vs. dragon breath (and nothing else), you’ll be assured of getting the gird loins bonus.

We had mentioned a few other ideas for the dwarf, but we’ve decided against them. We’re moving on to the huntress!

Jan 5, 2021 5:45

I am still learning the new dwarf. However, it seems it is bugged. I think in the first round of defense when dragons have still have breath he gets a resist against the attack. This is a very interesting behaviour and might give a nice balance between defense tactics and “stupid crowd battles” but I think it is currently a bug. Maybe this is the reason why the dwarf seemed to be OP? If you remove this bug, there might come new complains about the weakness of the dwarf… If you keep it as a feature, it should be documented…

Jan 5, 2021 10:34

Thanks, Rellik. But I don’t understand what you mean. The dwarf always has resilience against dragon breath, and has resilience against all attack forms when hunkering. Are you saying he’s resisting melee attacks when he’s not hunkering? That would be a bug, but I have not observed it.

Jan 5, 2021 15:29

Ah, now I understand how it works. I just had a unique pattern in my run that was not a bug, but just a rare random creation that confused me. But maybe we can keep this in mind as an idea: If the dwarf (or any later 4th character) gets a bonus for any new contact with the enemy, it creates a new optimal “hit and run” behavior.

Jan 8, 2021 0:57

It is a very nice new tactical functinality that charge triggers disorientation. However, it is not that “realistic” as the leap of the elf. From a principal perspective it should just trigger a new debuff called “discouraged” that e.g. halves the attack value for one round. That would allow casters and bowmen to step back from the dwarf (which is not a problem for him) but still has a similar functionality like the local disorientation. Of course that makes only sense if you feel you want to use “discouraged” in the future for other things, too and want to distinguish from “disorientation”.

Jan 8, 2021 1:00

you can also call the status “wet” and we don’t talk about what the liquid is ;)

Jan 8, 2021 21:43

OK after having played some pure dwarf games, I think I am ready to beat nudnik next weak in tournament ;) The dwarf is now again much stronger than the human. With an average drop, 50-60 dragons should be possible. I agree with whand and rand9999 that the new dwarf has some REALLY NICE new “moves”. E.g. I chased a mage dragon today “around” a 3 times stunned other dragon. Against 2-3 dragons the game gained nice tactical complexity. However, the decision to make resilience resist everything in hunker seems to flatten back to an OP strategy “hunker all”. I thought about that and my suggestion is to let the dwarf pay a price for all this strength, so that he is not an “infinite dragon slayer”: Trinkets!
Make hunker I work like that: “When guarding, the use of trinkets allows resilience to apply on all other attacks.”
Or maybe more clean, make hunker work like that (a bit weaker):
Hunker I: When guarding, rolling a 2 can trigger a trinket
Hunker II: When guarding, resilience chance is doubled
Hunker III: When guarding, rolling a 3 can trigger a trinket
In any case, the dwarf gets a “trinket waster” (of course!). I almost never consume all my trinkets. Typically I have 12 or more left. Maybe other players or your statistic can confirm that. When trinkets are out, the dwarf falls back to a more “human” level (and should be below). So on a “long run” one may have to decide where to use hunker and how low dragon numbers can be fought without trinket/hunker and clever use of charge.

Jan 9, 2021 0:31

The trinket idea is interesting. I think if we were to do that, I’d like to make it a general rule for guarding for all heroes: when guarding, trinkets can trigger with a 1 or 2.

And then lower the dwarf’s hunker resilience to something like 30/35/40

Jan 9, 2021 5:52

OK, but please consider that dices are different. So a 2 for the elf is “the same” as a 3 for the dwarf. So hunker I or II could/should still increase that value and you can leave resilience boost for the the levels.

Jan 9, 2021 9:18

Yes fighting “around” other foes is one of the new dwarf’s strengths. I noticed Nudnik got to 50 dragons this week in the tournament with the dwarf.

Re your suggestion for trinkets: You have really high level fame with many trinkets, and a really high level dwarf. I have rather less (around 10 trinkets, and a level 14 dwarf) and they can all get used up. The effect is noticeable when I run out. So do consider people with lower fame before using up trinkets quicker.

Hunker was intended to be strong for the dwarf. Hunker lost a defense point in exchange for the resistance. Elf has Dodge and Human has Parry both of which are similar. He still takes hits hunkering against dragons although I admit with the mithril and +9 shield he is quite resistant to them. You still have to be careful though. I don’t think I would defeat 50 dragons (or even 35) by just hunkering. But if you still think it’s too strong, you could probably just reduce the resistance percentages a bit.

You still have to be a really good player to defeat 50 dragons. No doubt Rowdius has the stats, but to me it looks like the tournament is usually won with 35 dragons.

Good luck in the tournament Rellik!

Jan 9, 2021 14:59

The increase hunker III gives is significant. 50% instead of 60% chance to get hit means 1/6 less hits. That means from e.g. 12 potions =36 health=6 direct hits (2 potions) AND a strike back. That increases of course with number of potions/dragons. Of course also trinkets are less wasted (also 1/6 less). So yes, the lvl makes some difference. But you will level this before reaching an unbeatable amount of dragons. It is pretty tough to find a “tactical component” in hunkering. That is why I suggested trinket consumption.
For your appeasement: I also used up 20 trinkets once. But I assume that you don’t die in a game where you need up all your trinkets, because it is a “lucky” one. But I am also sure, that they will increase the number a bit if it is needed…

Jan 11, 2021 6:49

The new uppercut is not yet in hit calculation. I just got 28% hit chance with a 7 sword on a dragon.

Jan 13, 2021 8:23

Thanks for the good wishes raand9999. I wonder what the balance should be. Now the dwarf is again stronger than human, because human got cut down with massive hits usage.
Two thoughts: I) The last upgrades of the dwarf (above 18) are not very relevant. Hunker III is the last major upgrade. So maybe the dwarf just feels so strong, because he is a bit early on “max strength”. I would suggest to change the skill order or to think about how things can be slightly more interesting for the hunker char:
II) What the dwarf would need is a real weakness. From time to time I think up to 5 minutes about a lair room with the elf and the human, because they cannot handle all situations. The worst thing that can happen to a dwarf is a “river” of pits with shooting dragons from the other side. But typically you can just jump there and hunker down. Maybe the weakness should be “immobility” (because he is “a heavy” - the opposite of the elf). So maybe one should add this. E.g. an impossibility to charge (or even move?) directly from a hunker without gird loins, or take away the jumping over pits from the leap scroll (only over monsters, because dwarfs fear heights). The first change would cause some major trouble with fleeing foes. Maybe this is a bit extreme. In that case one would need e.g. a stun chance in frency?

But we can do all this balancing, when the elf is there and make all three comparable. I will now focus on the elf again and won’t play any more tournament (except someone wants to “steal” my position ;D)

Jan 13, 2021 13:52

There are a couple of pretenders to the crown loitering on 35+ dragons; the king might have to draw his sword once more! :-)

Jan 13, 2021 15:51

raand, you made my day :) I was indeed worried about whand, but now it seems to be only me or nudnik. The problem is, that playing elf disturbs my game. I cannot “swap” characters for too long. I cannot say what I do wrong otherwise, but I play from 20 dragons on always with the same character. Otherwise I make serious mistakes when choosing the strategy for a room. That is rather interesting, isn’t it?
My second hint is to try to keep your starting adrenaline in the tournament. That is the largest potion saver of all. After collecting a potion, I can be sure it is “wasted” after some rooms in the dungeon. But often the starting adrenaline brings me until the lair! It is such a difference! But of course, NEVER EVER walk with one health only in tournament! And really fear the ghouls and the reaper when trying this…..

Jan 13, 2021 17:38

I know exactly what you mean about swapping characters. I definitely “see” the room differently once I’m tuned in to playing a particular character, and make (more) mistakes if not.

There’s a real skill to not picking up the potions so you have adrenaline but can still get the weapons to progress. And making sure you can get back to the potions when you need them! In the first rounds of the tournament I’ve been trying to not over-collect kit and just avoid playing difficult rooms completely. A couple of potions, a few suitable scrolls and some half-decent weapons is enough to take out a few red dragons once you know what you’re doing. And its quicker to get through the early rounds as well.

Jan 14, 2021 1:31

Yes. I roughly measured my time this tournament. I think it was 8 minutes for 6 dragons. Then grew slightly up to like 15-20 minutes for 10 dragons. From 30 dragons on it was more than an hour. 45 and 50 must have been at least 2 hours. Not only because of the dragons, but because I cleared all rooms and carefully looted all chests and some “mess” that happened.
With the dwarf the “not taking” is simple. If you have a pit near the entrance, you can just call the worm and leave while it is out.

Side (time) story of this 50er game: I had 2 health in adrenaline mode and was facing a healthy mummy king. I ran around a pit hoping for the worm to show up, because I also didn’t had a leap scroll and very bad weapons (I think it was 4,3,6). So we ran around that pit for 10 minutes, because that stupid worm didn’t show up. Finally I defended and of course got hit. Had to go for a potion and lost this too. I lost a whole potion because of my lack of patience and hunkered the mummy down “on tilt”. It was the first time I tried so hard for a “perfect game”, because I promised the 50. So I may never promise anything again! But I cannot promise it ;)

Jan 14, 2021 11:04

…and that room in the top left of the ruins doesn’t have a second doorway you can use either, so once the mummy king is close and there are no other monsters your options are rather limited. You got the 50 despite that, though! The other two boss rooms both have two doorways. It does take time to carefully clear all the rooms without getting hit.

I suppose you could have called the worm and accepted you were going to get hit once. But on +6 it doesn’t feel like a lost cause if you hunker against +9.

In the tournament where I was one dragon behind Harvester, I elected not to use a flame scroll to burn a slime in the tunnels and got hit. I finished one dragon short, with exactly one flame scroll left at the end!

Jan 15, 2021 1:25

That is right stranger! And indeed it would have been the better decision to call, risk the hit and fight with one health besides the worm. It sounds like “decisions of minor importance”, but can have a huge impact at the end.

By the discussion way:
I have a pretty cool move (probably OP-move) with the dwarf in mind, but never found a realistic option to make it, yet: Assume you can “crowd control” dragons such that you defend and gird loins AND they build an “incomplete circle” of 5 dragons. You now go on stealth and charge into the center of the circle. That would give for a max dwarf on adrenaline 9+2+2+7+4+3=27 attack! - a sure massive hit. Now you can go on and destroy all dragons there with gird loins and feat (at least down to frency collapse). Is gird loins active during later feat in the same turn? If I ever manage this, I will share a video. What do you think? Are “small versions” of that move, worth a try? E.g. without full-skill dwarf, adrenaline and 9-sword? Do you do something like that? For me (adrenaline player) that is currently not an option, because of a sudden-death chance if the dwarf attacks with a low dice…

Jan 15, 2021 16:21

Lesser moves similar to that are quite effective with the dwarf once you get Feat mode and +7 on a suitable dragon. I was getting beaten up in one lair room recently until I rolled a Heroic Strike and then the tables were turned. Thanks for the reminder that I can get +3 attack with those Vanish scrolls I always forget to use especially in the Hunt! :-)

Took me a while to figure out 9 sword, 2 adrenaline, 2 charge, 7 frenzy, 3 surprise, 4 gird loins with max dwarf. You’d have 9 sword 2 adrenaline 2 charge 7 frenzy 7 feat = 27 on a second charge in Feat mode without Gird Loins, and +31 if you still have it. +31 (10 dragon +10 max roll + 11 for Massive Hit) needed for a second Massive Hit so 4+ on the dice if you don’t have Gird Loins.

Not sure if gird loins continues throughout the whole feat (whether by accident or design).

A dragon will stab you in the back if the feat chain doesn’t happen, and there is a risk of not getting +7 on either of the dragons adjacent to the one you first charged (so that your second charge disorients the one you originally charged and one of the ones originally behind you). Max dwarf has good chance of getting +7 though. They do start running away on one hit, making them easier to charge. And if the feat chain continues you have cleave on charge to reduce dragons to 1 hit point quickly.

Max dwarf is a lot of XP! Nudnik has level 20. I’ve not seen anyone with higher.

Jan 18, 2021 11:08

Running around a pit till the worm shows up seems like it would get old fast. Is it often that you find yourself doing it, or wishing you had? Would it be better if it was not an option? For instance, we could say the worm only appears if there was a combat on the prior turn. In conjunction, maybe we say the dwarf has a 2% chance of attracting the worm (rather than the standard 1%).

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