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The New Swordsman
Nov 26, 2020 16:58

He dices. He slices.

We proudly introduce the new swordsman. (New brawler and huntress coming soon.)

Please see the character sheet or forum for the full description, but here are highlights:

RAGE - gain a sword bonus when foiled by bad rolls.
SKEWER - strike down two monsters if they are lined up
BETTER BOWMANSHIP - use a d10 instead of d8 with the bow
SPECIAL FEAT - during feats, bull rush any size monster (even a dragon!)
HIGHER LEVELS - make your way to level 24!

Also note that riposte has been removed, and parry has changed, cleave is part of full swing, and slaying a dragon or ruins boss now triggers a feat. And you may find that your swordsman has gone up in level; his experience points have not changed, but the level requirements have gone down.

Nov 26, 2020 16:59

Below is a full description of the new swordsman. Please let us know what you think.

PROFICIENCIES: Sword - d12 Bow - d10 Shield - d10


Bull Rush - Shove and attack. Shoving small monster into pit triggers feat.

Rage - Each time you roll a 1 or 2 on defense roll and are hit, or roll a 1 or 2 with sword and miss, gain +2 to next sword attack. Bonus is cumulative. Rage continues until you hit with your sword or leave the room. Max +10.

Punt - Push back small humanoids after they hit you. You can punt them into a pit, but it does not trigger a feat.


Full Swing I: If target is only adjacent monster, +2 sword
Full Swing II: 30% to cleave
Full Swing III: 60% to cleave

Parry I: 30% chance to block a melee attack that would otherwise hit. Only applies to the first melee attack against you each round.
Parry II I: 50% chance instead of 30%.
Parry III: 70% chance instead of 50%.

Skewer I: When you hit with sword, 30% chance to also hit the monster directly behind it, if there is one.
Skewer II: 50% instead of 30%.
Skewer III: 70% instead of 50%.

Press I: +1 to sword attack if target cannot move away
Press II: +2
Press III: +3

SPECIAL FEAT: Swordsman can bull rush any size monster (but not >1 hp into pits)

Nov 26, 2020 17:30

New rules just as I was about to face 10 red dragons in the tournament. That was interesting!

Nov 26, 2020 22:54

Thanks to the new Swordsman todays Hunt against Ropers was really different – to say the least.

At the start: Killed 4 Ropers and 2 Ettins without them getting a single turn … o.O
Using bull rush on an usally imobile Roper feels a bit weird.

40+ kills and only a few non-feat turns later:
A room with 7 (!) Ropers and one scorpion … the scorpion did not help with triggering a feat … too bad for the Swordsman. I should have saved a Flame Scroll to block the Scorpion’s path and bull rush it into one of the pits. Maybe I’ll use them more wisely next time.

The performance seemed a bit too reliant on luck:
In a room filled with monsters, can you trigger a feat with your first 1 or 2 attacks?
If yes (bull rush small monster into pit or heroic/massive hit on poor defended monster), then you’ll probably clear the room in only a few turns.
If not, … well you might have enough HP left for another try … or not.

Nov 27, 2020 10:04

The Swordsman definitely feels stronger, or maybe I’m just luckier than usual. My only current concern is how they’ll fit in with the Elf and the Dwarf, since they aren’t updated yet. With more maximum skills/levels, the Elf and Dwarf can’t really match up, until they, too, are updated. Time will tell.

Nov 27, 2020 14:33

Well, I’ll definitely miss Riposte a little bit, but otherwise this seems to be a pretty good change. I do think this makes the human stronger, but considering that my Daily Hunts almost never make it past 40, a power boost was probably called for.

Nov 27, 2020 15:53

Along with the swordsman update, we were intending to add some restrictions on feats - but we neglected to do so. But we plan to make these changes to feats:

  • Each feat bonus is capped at +7.

  • When a feat is in progress, Massive Hits (to trigger another feat) will require the attack to be at least 12 more than the maximum defense (instead of the normal 8).

Nov 27, 2020 16:50

spirit chaser is exactly right re the hunt for the Ropers.
And yes the swordsman does seem stronger (and more mobile) with Bull Rush and the new changes. I was surprised you put in the d10 change - I thought in the last iteration you’d decided to keep it at d8.
I’m still to find out what difference there is when the swordsman has a good sword and a poor shield.

Sounds like I’m about to lose the +8 feat bonus I just got given by the new XP levels :-) But it does seem wrong that you can just keep triggering consecutive feats to clear rooms.

Nov 28, 2020 10:03

@Rowdius: That explains a lot.

I’m not sure about the hard-coded 12, though:
If feat bonus +7 is reached, this seems fair. But at lower levels it might make feat chains almost impossible and thereby reduce the chance of a “really heroic feat” … Taking “away” that experience might reduce the fun for beginners a bit.

Perhaps the requirement for chained feats could be tied to the currently unlocked bonus cap. Start at 9/10 and let it grow “slowly” without making a level up feel like a step down …

Nov 28, 2020 11:11

I just played for fun my next career (43 green) with swordman only. He pulverized the dragons. There was a room with 6 dragons, where I didn’t take any damage (dragons had one or two turns). That is rather insane. I think dragons need one more health now, otherwise you can VERY OFTEN kill a dragon with one haste scroll (and be on turn again). In that one room I shot two lightnings in a row of three and then went through the leftovers like “just walking”. All in all it feels too strong. I even didn’t use mithril (swordman only, found it in the second last room). I think I can kill more than 100 dragons now with a good drop, but I haven’t tried the others (they also profit from free feat). Just for the “damage-count”: If you have long dragon rows you can easily eat them all up, because of the combination of haste, cleave, skewer, and feat (to the next yellow or red. And if I miss, there was parry! Give the poor dragons five health points and the killable numbers will be similar to before.

Nov 28, 2020 12:04

I agree with the above comments expressing concern about balance: unless the swordsman is designed to be the “special”, granting d10 for the bow seems excessive. The model where each hero had a d6, a d8, and a d10 assigned to different attributes made more sense. If your concern is that the swordsman is underpowered because the game requires more ranged attacks, then that is a challenge, but I don’t agree that the solution is to make [x] hero suddenly awesome at everything.

Nov 28, 2020 12:44

Bugs? It feels wrong to get feat when a dragon is killed by another dragon (or worm?). And I bull-rushed a monster into an invisible specter today. That looked a bit strange. The solution could be to “detect” the specter but just show a normal attack.

Nov 28, 2020 13:41

OK, I just finished the next (43 blue) with 9 potions and roughly 30 scrolls left with human only in the lair. 4 potions from the tunnels and 2 used for an upgrade, so 9 potions is “a lot”. I saw several massive hits in the lair, so maybe that gets better. Still… My Human is not max lvl, so I think one should decrease the lvl 3 amount of the skills to the lvl 2 amount (this seems to be enough). Or you bring in some new REAL challenge. Again I had a 9,9 equip for sword an shield, and mithril was in the last room (hardly any use).

Nov 28, 2020 16:15

I just parried a showing up worm after having shot with a bow?

Nov 28, 2020 16:19

Successful Skewer gives me a feat? Always?

Nov 28, 2020 17:50

We released these changes:

  • Each feat bonus is capped at +7.
  • When a feat is in progress, Massive Hits (to trigger another feat) will require the attack to be at least 12 more than the maximum defense (instead of the normal 8).

We’re working on the skewer = feat problem.

Nov 28, 2020 19:25

Skewer auto-feats should be fixed now too.

Nov 29, 2020 0:25

Human can parry the reaper. I assume this as a feature and not a bug :D

Nov 29, 2020 3:01

I tried playing the Brawler today instead of the human (as I’m on 11 white) and it does feel like the Swordsman is armed to the teeth now in comparison. There were rooms where I could have basically just pushed all the monsters into the pit with the Swordsman. A guaranteed kill and an extra move to get into position for the next one is very powerful. I’m not wholly convinced he should get a feat for pushing into a pit. But the others are being upgraded soon so maybe the others will be stronger too.

Nov 29, 2020 4:17

I just played the tournament to 50 with human only. My Conclusion: In the normal dungeon (not lair) human is now comparable to elf and dwarf. 0 Damage seems possible, but is not easy and typically I consume one potion outside the lair. He needs mostly hastes against dragons, so he can easily burn the tunnels. The drop for 50 dragons was:
Only one sword drop better than seven (8). I put that on the altar and went for dragon slaying with 9,7,7. I only droped 2 healths in the tunnels, so that was a pretty bad all in all. However the MOST important was the (good) sword. 50 are possible with that equip, but tough.
The human is superior now to the others in the lair (before update). His strength comes from the combination of skewer with cleave. Even if no cleave happens and the dragon escapes with one health after haste+attack, the next dragon can be either hasted or (if skewer damaged already) cleaved and the human can catch the escaped dragon. I haven’t played others yet. They probably also profit from the feat-on-dragondeath? This basically reduces the health of the dragon by one and makes it a lot easier. As I proposed above, we could therefore increase health to 4.

Nov 29, 2020 11:26

I am concerned that the new human, at a very high level, is too much stronger than the human is, at a moderate to low level.

The current situation, as of today, rewards attendance rather than skill and thoughtful play. In effect, a player who has been playing for a long time, but badly, and accumulated a large number of experience points over time, due to persistence, is now going to be vastly more successful than the player who gets the most out of limited resources, in challenging situations.

Having an advanced level increasing the percentage of successful outcomes is not unreasonable, but the gradient, as it stands now, is way too steep. Increasing the success rate by a few percentage points, instead, would keep the playing field relatively level.

To me, it makes no sense that the human/elf/dwarf are potentially stronger and more dangerous than dragons are. Dragons should be defeated by strategically using a combination of scrolls and potions that are in short supply, and are likely to be used up while there are still dragons to deal with. It should not be the case that predictably repeated feats make it possible to clear a room without depleting supplies of scrolls and potions.

If the player finishes a game with lots of scrolls and potions still in the inventory, then the game was simply too easy–a waste of time that is winnable, even after making lots of mistakes.

We votes that today’s situation is simply silly, and needs to be dialed back.

Increasing dragon health to 4 should be out of the question, as it leaves behind the majority of players, and all newer players, who are struggling to compete while using lower-level heroes.

As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the best (simplest and fairest) way to make it possible to deal with greater numbers of dragons is by putting magical objects (such as altars and mithril-like objects) deep in the lair, where numerous dragons need to be slain, in order to find them.

When increased skills are attached to the heroes, and the discrepancy between an experienced and inexperienced hero is so large, then the game rewards attendance rather than skill.

Just my two cents. :)

Nov 29, 2020 15:04

Thanks, everyone. We agree that the current swordsman is too strong, and the skill progression too steep.

We propose these changes:

a) Lower Parry percentage to 30/40/50 (from 30/50/70)

b) Lower Skewer percentage to 30/40/50 (from 30/50/70)

c) Lower Full Swing cleave percentage to 0/30/50 (from 0/30/60)

d) Shoving into a pit does not trigger a feat. (Although maybe monsters adjacent to the fallen monster skip their turn, “Gaping”)

e) Epic Deed feats are only triggered by your own action, not that of a monster

f) Lower the massive hit differential requirement, during feats, from 12 to 11. [this one is a benefit]

What do you think?

Nov 29, 2020 16:04

Hi, Rowdius.

Back of the envelope calculation makes me think that variations from 30…50 and 0…60 are still way excessive.

Here is my thinking:

When you win dragon-quality weapons, the difference between getting +7+7+7 and +8+8+8 is profound, not to mention +9+9+9.

In my experience, the difference between a set of 7’s and a set of 9’s is often the difference between a game being impossible to win (no matter how well you play) and easy to win (even allowing for numerous mistakes).

Rough calculation, consider rolling a d12, your best weapon, rolling on average a 6, and having your sword/bow/shield bonus increase your roll to 6+7, 6+8, or 6+9 = 13,14,15.

The percentage difference between a +7 bonus and a +8 bonus is around 7%. The difference between +7 (impossible to win) and +9 (easy to win), repeated over all of your attacks and defenses throughout the game is only 14%.

14% is approximately the difference between a team of .250 hitters and a team of .300 hitters. Who ya gonna bet on?

My point is that a 7% advantage is large and anything above a 10% advantage is massive. Your bonus structure is contemplating giving experienced players a larger advantage than that in every aspect of the game. Again, making skill less relevant and attendance too important in determining the outcome. I am thinking that a 5% advance per experience step in any aspect of the game would be more than enough. Otherwise, beginning players will find it impossible, and experienced players will find it too easy.

Just an opinion.

Nov 29, 2020 16:25

Other technical issue going on with the new programming that I thought that I should mention, relevant to triggered feats.

First issue:

Many times during the past couple of days, I have assumed a defensive stance against multiple opponents. The dragons attack, one by one. Say one dragon (in the middle of the series) misses, and I shoot back, killing the dragon. A little rectangle appears, telling me that I have won a feat, but that the feat will disappear after I have attacked another opponent. Sure enough, another dragon attacks me during the same turn, misses, I (automatically) shoot back, and the little rectangle disappears, ending the “feat” that I never got the opportunity to take advantage of. Am I correct in assuming that the awarding of a “feat” bonus should properly be calculated at the beginning of my next turn, rather than during the series of dragon attacks, and award me a bonus if ANY of the attackers were killed?

Second issue:

Using a scroll, I move onto the hexagon that I intend to occupy, and then defend. A dragon dies during their attack, and I am awarded a “feat” bonus. The message tells me that I can take a move first and then shoot; or end the “feat” by defending in place. So, I try shooting at a dragon, but nothing happens because every hexagon that I click on is interpreted as a move. I am told that I can’t move there (likely because there is a dragon there that I want to aim at). If I want, I CAN move and then shoot; but I do not want to move because I am exactly where I intended to be (behind a wall of fire, or next to a weapons rack, for example). If I want to stay where I am, then I have no choice (in the current programming) but to defend and end the “feat” without ever being able to take advantage of it.

I assume that the issue is that “feats” due to killing things are new in the programming, and this is a bug that needs to be worked out. Yes?

Nov 29, 2020 23:43

I agree with beetletoe, that the skills may still me strong. But I think it should be possible to play tournament with ALL characters, so we will see…
The comparison to 7/9 weapon-difference depends on the skill. 10% IS a big difference, if it applies additionally. E.g. cleave and skewer is an additional possible damage in certain situations only. Parry only applies if defense is not high enough alone. That means 50% parry reduces the chance to be hit by a dragon from e.g. 60% to 30% (but again only in certain situations (first dragon).
But I agree, that a good increase is indeed a bit smaller:
Parry: 10/20/30 (or made weaker dependent on the attackers strength)
Cleave: 0/20/40
Skewer: as it is already: 30/40/50 (but what is that chance? Hit or to attack additionally?) The change to make pit-bullrush “stun” nearby enemies is fair I think.

I also have one remark to the feat on kill: As the dwarf does a kill often in defense mode, he cannot profit that much from that change… this could be a very relevant argument to not use the dwarf… (but I haven’t played the dwarf till the update)

Nov 30, 2020 7:57

Actually, the dwarf is doing very well when it gets the opportunity to do a series of charging attacks. If the first one succeeds, and a “feat” is awarded, then the dwarf gets to adjust position by one hexagon, run at a second dragon with a high bonus, rinse and repeat, thereby clearing the room. This seems like a big advantage, relative to the human, whose mobility is usually more limited.

But, yes, Rellik is correct that the dwarf (and elf) also need to be able to win “feats” in defensive mode, in order to play on a par with the new human.

As previously discussed, the elf also needs to be able to gain focus when a leaping attack misses and (I don’t know if this was discussed) gain focus against each specific opponent when defending and the elf’s (or dwarf’s) counter-attack misses. This could work similarly to the human’s new “rage” bonus, I think.

Nov 30, 2020 8:53

Currently the rules concerning Feats state:

Feats are triggered in these ways
* “Heroic Strike”: …
* “Massive Hit”: …
* “Epic Deed”: …
Feats are not triggered during scroll use, nor from counterattacks. …

As the example posted above by beetletoe shows, the “nor from conterattacks” part seems to be overruled by the “Epic Deed” – even if they can not make use of the Feat due to another Dragon missing and getting counter attacked.

I feel like an “Epic Deed” should indeed be rewarded even if it was done during a counter attack.
So I propose making this bug (it defies the rules) into a feature (the rules are changed).

Concerning the proposed changes:

a)–c) To come to an objective result I guess I would need to consider all relevant use cases of these Skills and how they affect the hit/miss-chances that are themselves convolutions of uniform probability distributions …
But than again, I still hope you guys already did that in some way before proposing the changes. ;-)
The argument by beetletoe (comparison to probabilites caused by different weapons) seems plausible at first, but as Rellik Nogard pointed out the Skills’ success chances are only relevant in specific situations …
And now we rely more or less on a “feeling” for probabilites – which humans are mostly quite terrible at – as feedback. :-(
@Rowdius: Can you share your current analysis of the math involved that led to your suggestions? Then we would not need to replicate all the work an could simply review it.

d) I think that shoving into pits without any additional bonus (Feat or “Gaping”) would make this move far less useful. So if you really think the guaranteed Feat too powerful, replace the bonus with something less powerfull – but not nothing.
Inbetween Feat and the proposed “Gaping” is another option: “Global gaping” – A free turn without additional bonus (like the second/normal move from Haste Scrolls).

e) We would need to defend our prey against kill-stealing spell casters … OK.
But what about counter attacks?

f) I still think it should not be fixed to the same value for all levels.

Nov 30, 2020 11:32

To address bugginess while we evaluate the feature, Epic Deeds will no long trigger feats during counter attacks. Please report further bugs if you notice any.

Nov 30, 2020 14:55

I think that it is important to consider that several of the new skills essentially double (or more) the number of enemy hit points that you can collect in one turn, without exposing yourself to additional damage. It is irrelevant that it is “only one skill”, because high-experience characters are scheduled to be awarded several such skills. If your odds of success (piercing, skewering, “feat”ing) are close to 100% (or a significant fraction of 100%), then the number of dragons that you can kill (all else being equal) should roughly double, relative to what a lower-level character can manage without the corresponding skills, even without mistakes. Is it a good idea to reward persistence to that extent?

Nov 30, 2020 21:47

So, another maybe bug:

If I use a haste scroll, and kill a dragon with the first shot, then I do not get a feat… only if the dragon dies with the second shot.

How does this make sense?

Dec 1, 2020 3:59

Before introducing Epic Deeds it is was like this:
1. Haste rule (no Feat) and Counter attack rule (no Feat)
2. Heroic/Massive strike (Feat)

The buggy part was this changed situation:
1. Haste rule (no Feat)
2. Epic Deed (Feat)
3. Counter attack rule (no Feat)
4. Heroic/Massive strike (Feat)

According to Masterleep’s statement the new situation should be:
1. Haste rule (no Feat) and Counter attack rule (no Feat)
2. Epic Deed (Feat) and Heroic/Massive strike (Feat)

While this might not be satisfying concerning the “loss” of Epic Deeds being rewarded in several situations, it is at least a consistent rule set.
@beetletoe Does this make sense now?

Dec 1, 2020 4:15

I only use haste scrolls now on healthy dragons. It might be formally consistent, but feels a bit strange to use a “haste” scroll, but the human gets “slower” (not feat on dragon kill). How is this with lightning scrolls killing a dragon now?

Dec 1, 2020 9:26

Hi, spirit chaser.

I am assuming that the decision to remove feats from counterattacks was a temporary fix, and that eventually feats will once again be awarded for dragon deaths that occur in the middle of a series of events, once the programming is corrected to accommodate that situation. There was also a bug wherein the “free move” at the beginning of a feat was sometimes mandatory, rather than optional. My thinking is that the failure to award a feat for the first move using a haste scroll is just another spot in the code that needs to change.

Just out of curiosity, for people playing the new human extensively, what is your experience when you kill the dragon in front, but a “skewer” event causes the dragon in back to be injured. Does the hit on the back dragon register AFTER the death in front? And does this cause a feat to not be awarded for the death of the front dragon?

Dec 1, 2020 12:15

The swordsman skills have been adjusted to bring him back to a semi-sane power level:

Parry %: 20/30/40
Cleave %: 0/20/40

Additionally, there were some unintended lingering effects of the old Parry which have been removed, namely the +1 bonus and best of sword/shield defense during guarding.

Dec 2, 2020 12:33

Epic deeds (feats from dragon/boss kills and pit falls) were unbalanced and problematic. We have taken them out and restored the previous feat system - in particular, a roll 1 less is needed to achieve a heroic strike against a dragon. We will continue to ponder whether some other form of epic deed would be fun and balanced.

Also, the massive hit overkill requirement when chaining feats has been reduced to 11 from 12.

Dec 2, 2020 16:33

Although not getting a feat for pushing a monster into the pit when I was expecting one was slightly disappointing, I think that the swordsman is better balanced now without it. I still managed some chains of massive hits against the snakes and mushroom men in the hunt, but they are low defense, I was in a good position with a strong hero (Press II, Full Swing II) and I got decent rolls so I think that is fair enough.

As spirit chaser suggested, I think a free turn after pushing a monster into the pit might be fair - after all if you Bull Rush a monster you push him and then fight. If you push him into the pit, you could still fight… The conditions for pushing a monster in the pit often mean you end up next to or between other monsters if they were blocking the spaces he could run away to so having a chance to guard or fight would be useful. If you think that’s too much, at least consider automatically guarding if necessary after pushing into a pit.

Dec 2, 2020 16:45

I agree with Rand. Although I’ve only had a short time to play the warrior after this change I can see that pushing someone in a pit is almost always going to put you within range of another monster so without the free move it makes it much less useful. Maybe a second move without feat bonus or auto defend (or auto retreat but I can’t think of a good way to implement that).

Dec 3, 2020 0:34

I also agree with rand9999 in two cases: At first my disapointment (I have been hit in the hunt because I expected a feat but didn’t get one). Second point: The reason for the feat was that it is often bad to go on that place, because you need other blocking monsters (as rand9999 correctly pointed out). So it is now often better to strike, than to bull-rush (e.g. you might get possible skewer) into a pit. That’s a pitty! So what about at least a guard-mode for free or “fear” on nearby monsters (for the rest of the fight and it can stack) for doing the pit-bull-rush?

Dec 3, 2020 13:36

Some time in the future we will ask other players, “Hey, remember that week in late 2020 when the game was kinda easy?”

Dec 4, 2020 10:03

We just released a new version where bull rushing into pits works like this:

If a monster is pushed into a pit, all the other monsters in the room are so in awe that they skip their next turn.

However, you cannot bull rush a monster into a pit if you are hasted because moving towards a pit that fast is dangerous (and because the assorted gnomes don’t want to deal with that case).

We believe this wraps up the swordsman for now. We are moving on to the brawler.

Dec 4, 2020 16:22

Thanks Rowdius. Free turn is what we suggested. I guess we’ll find out if it works!

Dec 5, 2020 9:27

So, the character sheet for the swordsman needs to be updated also?

Dec 5, 2020 21:08

We didn’t quite move on from the Swordsman …

  • We now do allow hasted pit shoving. (Thanks, gnomes.) Pushing a monster to their death does not use up your hasted action, so you can either take another hasted action or abort the haste scroll.

  • We reduced the skewer percentages to 30/40/50.

The character sheet has been updated as well.

Now it’s on to the Brawler.

Dec 10, 2020 12:26

Currently, I am at the 44 dragon level. The Human Swordsman still seems frustratingly underpowered at this stage. He cannot defeat them without several forays, hoping for adequate equipment, potions, and scrolls to triumph. Then there is luck….

For me, if it takes more than 4 attempts to clear a dragon lair, the redundancy and lack of success spoils the fun of conquest, which I believe is the point of the game. I have made at least nine attempts, and either I need a strategic clue, analysis of my tactics, or I should just give up playing the Swordsman.

Perhaps, the recent lowering of benefits can be reconsidered. The Swordsman misses dragons far too often and they almost always hit, even with +9 equipment. The Elf also seems to miss too often when retaliating against dragon breath. And, I think the Human and Dwarf should be able to do that as well, while defending.

While triggering a feat requires +11, instead of +8 during a feat chain, there should still be a feat for killing a dragon. When that was allowed, it helped to equalize bad luck and saved the amount of potions and scrolls needed. It also allowed for success without having to repeat the same stage, repeatedly, which is exasperating.

Incidentally, I have not been able to push monsters with two hit points or more. Is that correct?

Dec 10, 2020 13:03

Yes that’s right. You can’t Bull Rush multi-point monsters except during a feat. And even then you can’t push them into a pit.

Strategically, the new swordsman is strong against dragons if you can position yourself (and them) so you are one on one with your immediate foe and it is penned in with another dragon behind. This way you stack up Press (II) and Full Swing (II) with chances of cleaving and skewering them. If you can combine that with a Haste scroll you have stacked 5 points onto your attack, have two strikes for their one, and have a decent chance of taking two hit points with one strike. Creating that situation is, of course, a lot more difficult than it sounds.

Dec 11, 2020 0:47

Agamemnon I did the tournament easily to 50 dragons with human. But that was with feat on pit-bull-rush and more massive hits etc. But if you get a 8-sword this should be possible. We had suggestions to introduce a second or even third altar at 20, 40 dragons. This is the “luck part”. If you like I can make a video if this would give you some fresh tactical ideas. Typically I try to NOT take potions that I do not need to take, but play “as many parts as possible” on adrenaline.

Dec 11, 2020 11:08

Thank you raand9999 and Bare Hand for the tips. Strategic advice and success stories are very much appreciated. :-)

Lately, there seems to be very little treasure in the dragon rooms for their challenge level. There is much more treasure per room outside the dragon lair. Thematically, shouldn’t dragons hoard the most treasure? About half of the rooms have had no treasure at all.

I agree that more altars, or high quality weapon chests would be a boon, or just more scrolls. Also, it would be nice if lightning bolts always hit. They seem to hit about 1/3 of the time for me. Perhaps, all they need is a higher attack bonus.

Yes, I miss having the +8 to +10 feat bonus, but to line up for a (possible) skewer is a toss up: Should I use a leap scroll to move one square, when I know I will need many of them for fleeing dragons?

There are never enough scrolls for the Human Swordsman. The Elf and Dwarf do not seem to need nearly as many scrolls to succeed, while the Elf seems to benefit the most from them. The extra step allowed during a feat really benefit the Human and Dwarf more, because it allows them a more beneficial attack situation.


Dec 11, 2020 12:33

Well you’re right about the Swordsman needing scrolls. I’m only on 11 dragons so there is a chance of me having at least one Haste scroll and one Flame scroll per dragon. With good weapons and a few leap scrolls that’s usually enough for the swordsman. On 44 dragons, you’re never going to have that many scrolls so the challenge is greater.

Whether to use a leap scroll to reposition or not is, of course, one of those tactical decisions that is part of the game. Since I’m not playing Advanced I only have the swordsman. And I’m only on 11 dragons, but I find that striking first and hard usually pays off. So I’ll often sneak or leap to where I’m one on one with a dragon, light up fire behind it so I get Press and it can’t run away (pits are good for that too if you’re lucky), and then haste the attack so I have two strikes before it can fight back. With some luck (ie Cleave/Heroic Strike) you can take the dragon out before it even has a chance to hit you! But it’s expensive on scrolls so not always practical if you’re short on Haste or Fire. Then you have to think again for new tactics.

Lightning must be 50/50 against the dragons - I think it does 10 + dice roll and the dragons have 10 defense + their roll. It feels like less, from the few times I’ve remembered to use it against white dragons. It’s frustrating when the dragons are actually lined up for the lightning, you get into position to use it, and then it misses every one!

Dec 12, 2020 0:52

rand9999 said something VERY true: “I find that striking first and hard usually pays off.” E.g. take a haste scroll: The one round you are “faster” inside that room counts against ALL living dragons. They all “loose” a round against you. That is why “fast and hard” pays off. In 4+ rooms I even use a haste scroll (if it has a good stiking chance) ONLY and then leave the room again with the human to strike again with another haste (if there was no cleave). But that depends of course a bit on the number if available hastes.

Dec 17, 2020 3:37

One thing that human is still really missing is something to “catch up with fleeing dragons”. He is the only character that really suffers from that behaviour (dwarf has charge and elf shoots) and needs to consume leaps for that or must ALSO have a +9 bow to hope or hope for a lucky shot. It feels so annoying if cleave is not performed and that chicken-dragon runs away… I suggest that the cleave chance is slightly modified. Cleave on wounded enemies could get a higher chance. Or we add rage on the bow attack, too and give rage if an enemy retreats (“STAY HERE”).

Dec 18, 2020 17:49

Agamemnon This video is for you. My recording of a tournament red dragon run with human.

Some information about that run: Lair video of roughly 25 minutes.
I had only had 9 potions in total and had to use 2 on the altar. So I was all time low on health (and flame scrolls!). This was horrible. Keep this in mind if you sometimes wonder what I am thinking about or waiting for. Just look at my health and think about my options while waiting ;)
I increased risk from 23 dragons onwards, to somehow manage it.
Dragon 21 (left) was a misclick and no secret move.
From 14 to 3 dragons (left) there are lots of interesting moves. Maybe something you haven’t thought of?
My favorite move is after that long thinking period at 21:05. I am not sure if I have ever done such a barbarian move with the human before. And the move after that is the most insane/brave ever (look at the health would you have done this? Was this even right/expectable to win?)

All in all the human has his moments, but I think he is again not even with the elf or dwarf (more cleaves or skewer should help). I had above average weapons and below average secondaries. So that was a almost “normal” run with also average luck (only the start was exceptional). I did some small mistakes, but all in all just single wasted scrolls.

Dec 24, 2020 8:58

Thank you very much! Sorry I did not see this sooner. Happy Holidays!!

While I tend to clean up the Caverns, Mines, and Ruins completely before moving onto the Lair, I noticed that you use the dungeon as a supply locker to power your adrenaline. That does significantly reduce my overall hit success rate, so I will try it. Thank you.

Strategically, you used fire to both block paths and to add press bonuses. I tend to use them more for the press bonuses, so I will try using them as blocks more than usual. Also, I noticed that you use your bow more-and with greater luck than mine. I also observed that you had some bad luck, like a lightning bolt that missed all dragons, and a conjured werewolf hit you with a +8 shield at an inopportune time. (Bad luck.)

I did wonder why you did not hit the bugbear in the corner near the end of the video to attempt to trigger a feat, but it worked out anyway. (Good luck.)

Taking out dragon #21 with an arrow was risky, but it worked out!! (Yes, that happens to me too: misclick coupled with luck, but usually bad luck. Argh.)

Yes, I enjoyed your success near 21:05 from the Leap/defend tactic (which I only use with the Dwarf,) as well as the success from the Haste/Skewer shortly afterward that allowed you to keep one last Leap scroll which proved subsequently useful later in the room after that fortunate arrow hit on the dragon with the +7 feat bonus. Great shot! (Lots of good luck in that room.)

Near the end, did I notice one last health potion in the ruins when you left with 6 dragons remaining? Because of that, I wondered why you went after the ettins, instead of the potion and last 3 dragons. Because you still had flame scrolls, which is what the ettins were guarding (and an unopened weapon chest), I was curious about your intentions. Did I miss something then?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the video. It was fun to watch as well as instructional. I wish for you to have happy, and especially, healthy holidays!

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